doc

Forum Replies Created

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 125 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • in reply to: Training in LC #3488
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Hey Jared,
    On the use of TT. The target time is 13.00 seconds. Beep leave wall beat the beep which would be the second beep, rest a beep and leave on next beep. So the ratio is 1:2. What’s nice is you can actually set it to achieve 1:1, 1:2, or whatever ratio you choose by adjusting the # of beeps between.

    Turns. measure back to 12.5m and have them go 1 turn 25s. Real easy if you have TT and can be challenging trying to time, but it can be done. I would put highway cones at the 12.5m mark, it would at least give them something to aim for.

    Again, just thoughts.

    Doc


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Training in LC #3486
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Jared,
    I think a lot of coaches fall into that paradigm of “we’re training for 200+ in LC” Missing the speed component. True it’s far more difficult to address. Putting highway cones at 25 and trying to time as you have 8 swimmers crossing that imaginary line. I used tempo trainers with the sprinters during the summer, we would do “beat the beep”, not concerned about the rest interval. I would control the rest by the number of beeps they get i.e. 3 beeps, 4 beeps, etc. The problem with TT is they’ve gotten so expensive at $60 ea.

    I know it’s a pain. But if you don’t address the speed issue you have reduced the pieces to the puzzle.

    Just thoughts

    Doc


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Peak Height Velocity and a short timers experience #3475
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Yeedawg,
    Recovery i.e. SLEEP is critical to adaptation . There is a study done by Stanford on the basketball team on sleep and performance, it’s easy to find, just do a Google Scholar search. I tried it at GCU with 5 kids from the Distance grp and had really good results right up to finals week and then the whole thing went to hell in a hand basket. Gota study, they had 9 weeks to learn the material!

    Two a days. I now firmly believe is a waste of time especially with developing athletes. It is an old paradigm based solely on volume. How fit does one have to be? An athlete that can do 1000 crunches faster than some one who can only do 900. No, absolutely no correlation to performance. Unless you’re in a crunch contest:)

    You have the means/ways to monitor adaptation and that will be with pace. Say their 50s on 1:00 pace is 30s and over the season they make 120 out of 200 (roughly 60%) offered at 30s. They go to their meet, swim a best time and avg is now 29.27 (new stimulus) That becomes their new trng spd for 50s on 1:00 and they now start the climb back up the hill (numbers) same for any of the protocol sets.

    PHV and women has a huge impact in the training of women. I think an example is distance women come to college that haven’t gone a best time in the 500/1000 in 2 yrs. They still look for the exact training program from a college program that generated no improvement over the last 2 yrs.

    Doc


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Peak Height Velocity and a short timers experience #3472
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Yeedawg,
    Interesting dilemma isn’t it? Training or growth? It’s both. Not sure you could pin down how much of each contributed to the performance. Just be aware that PHV plays a part in performance in maturing athletes. But once PHV has been reached, it can help with determining direction of training program.

    Yes, they still need stimulus regardless of age in order to adapt. Be it increases in Volume, Intensity or Duration.

    It really doesn’t take much to create adaptation, the stimulus just has to be very specific.

    Question
    Do you measure height on a regular basis? i.e. 2x-3x/yr.

    This forum got started by a “n” of one πŸ™‚


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Any Thoughts Appreciated #3420
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Don’t apologize. This is how you learn. Swimmers should be asking questions.

    The kick tempo is kind of critical. If you think you’re faster underwater. You must be covering more distance underwater faster than on the surface swimming.

    Stroke tempo is from R hand hit to R hand hit or L to L. But I understand .40 is .80ish and .50 is 1.0ish.

    Cycles are R to R. But again, I understand cycle count as hand hits. It’s liking speaking two different languages.

    With regards to depth of push-offs. Starting at 1.6m/s velocity and .2m or 7.87 inches drag is reduced by 9.5%, at .4m or 15.7” drag is reduced 12.3% or .6m or 23.62” drag is reduced by 13.9%. and drag is reduced at a greater % as velocities increases and not depth. So, why go deep? Run the line 18 to 24 inches to surface. It gives you the maximum reduction in drag at velocity. Going deeper holds no advantage. Yes, you work realy hard but that doesn’t always equate to speed.

    The 200. Think of it as another piece of the puzzle. You don’t need to swim it at every meet, but you need to swim it. You need to work above and below the primary events. Just FYI. Your mom is not trying to go faster! You are:)

    thoughts


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Any Thoughts Appreciated #3418
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Liv,
    Your questions are good. Ryanupper is correct in be careful making to many changes at once. You shouldn’t change more than 10% over that and you’ll have no idea what worked or didn’t.

    Couple more questions. 1. what is your stroke tempo? 2. what is your kick tempo and 3. your number of cycles per 25?
    Kinda left out some pieces of the puzzle critical to knowing whether it would be better to be on the surface swimming.

    Here’s where I’m going to differ from ryanupper on the underwater work. Think of your “direction of travel and application of force”. You don’t want the feel of water to be vertical/ up & down. But horizontal/ back towards feet. (flow) This will take some work. You will also have to work in a very narrow space with movements i.e. as deep as you are thick in the water.

    I’m a believer in that you “run the line” 18-24 inches underwater traveling in the”boundary layer or blue water” with a perfect intersect (all body parts arrive at the surface at the same time) with the surface and “line moving forward” so you carry your wall speed as long as you can. No angles. Just “run the line”. Again this will take some time to develop.

    Try working from just under your armpits to start the movement. Arms and head remain still and you crack the whip and let the energy flow down the body. If you create any angles/bends it’s like tying a knot in the whip and energy stops at the knot and you become a 2nd class lever. Not good espicially in butterfly πŸ™‚

    Just some FYI that I’ve used with swimmers. These are for females 11 kicks/5 cycles, 7 kicks/7 cycles, and 7 kicks/ 6 cycles.

    Your 15m time is on the slower end with a swimmer going 52.82 with fast 6.52 median 6.75 or slow 6.99. So, not terrible.

    Your split differential between first and second 50 is fine. I use race data of the top 3 women at NCAAs in each event as a model for all strokes and distances.

    The “n x 50fr on 50/1:00” is based on your 50 & 100 and is just the upper limit to as slow as you can go. p.s. I did add 1.5% back into 29.93. You didn’t appear to swim many 200s πŸ™‚ My guess would be in the 1:57 range?

    Just some thoughts


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Any Thoughts Appreciated #3413
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Interesting. You kinda explained your “deceleration” with the “We haven’t really been taking this set seriously yet” Think of training as a puzzle and the more pieces you have the better you can see the picture.

    I’m going to guess that your second 50 split of 100fr is in the 27.39 range? Your 100fr time would suggest on “50s on :50/1:00” be no slower than 30.86.

    Also, you may think about flipping the sets occasionally. Take your short rest 50s and do them as the first set. It may allow you to get past 5. There is an accumulation of fatigue that occurs during a workout.

    Just some quick thoughts

    Doc


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Shorter rep distances to increase volume early in season #3335
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Ryan,
    You might want to really look into Firebelly. It was a learning function and the cost is under the gen3 apple watch, plus it does a lot more for swimmers. While back I’d asked the software developer to include turn times in the app and he did it. Super nice guy. The distance kids have kind of a love hate relationship with Firebelly as its always in their ear. It’s pretty trick stuff. There is another program on the market and that’s Triton Wear. Problem is it’s so damn expensive. Don’t get me wrong it gathers great metrics and at the gold level has all the “bells and whistles” but is $40/month. Firebelly is $229 and all upgrades are free downloads.

    p.s. I’m not a rep for Firebelly. Just helping the guy develop the system for swimmers that generates useful information.

    Doc


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Shorter rep distances to increase volume early in season #3330
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Ryan,
    There is a lot of logic in your methodology. Have you tried using a Tempo Trainer? On setting 1 you can get the exact time for repeats. We use number of beeps for rest. example 1:1 would be 1 beep or 1:2 would be 2 beeps you get the idea. There is a new gadget on the market called “Firebelly”. Firebelly is kinda interesting in that it talks to you (may not want that when you’re about to puke :). You can set it up through an app (download is free) in your phone and download the parameters for the set to the Firebelly. It can give you time, cycles, turn speeds and tempo. I’ve used it for my distance kids and the feedback has been positive. I will say “it can be information overload” and found that about two metrics is about all they can handle for right now.

    To mark distance. We use highway cones on the bottom of the pool for oddball distances and more so for LCM training. But it works also for SCY/SCM. At least the kids have a target to shoot for.

    Just throwing it out there.
    Doc


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Dry-land Training #3321
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Marlin,
    I’d agree. We have currently the fastest 100 backstroker in DI and he is long bodied and short legged. He has unbelievable underwater work.

    Just and FYI,
    I’m currently working with some software KINOVEA.org, it’s a free download and for the everyday coach it is all they would need. I will say this is it dosen’t play well with Windows 10, but still gets the job done. It can do just about everything Dartfish can do and save you $2k. It would allow you to measure the distance you talk about or come really close. I use it with our kids on underwater work, angles in starts, turns, Br & Fly.

    Doc


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Dry-land Training #3319
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Ryan,
    The practice of “dynamic correspondence”? Kinda. Big buzz word especially in the S&C community at least here it is. For those that may not be familiar with D.C. It was first used by the late Dr. Yuri Verkhoshansky, of the former Soviet Union. He developed the basic criteria for the “specific exercises”.
    1. That the exercise duplicates (not mimics) the same neuromuscular pathway/joint angles as seen in the execution of the competitive skill.
    2. That the exercise develop strength over the same ROM as it is displayed in the execution on the competitive skill.
    3. That the exercise duplicates (not mimics) the same type of muscular contraction as seen in execution of the competitive skill.

    Using the criteria from above it’s really hard to find an exercise that duplicates (not mimics) starts other than doing starts. I guess Dr. Costill, would say “want to be better/faster at starts, then do starts faster/better”. Just doing whatever number of starts per week if not timed, you have no idea if they are getting faster. Just increasing the load probably not going to solve that. Pwr=F/T.

    I believe it’s more a biomechanical issue and acceleration problem, not reps and loading. More specifically biomechanically joint angles at hip and ankles etc. Are the hips lower than their head? (won’t be very fast) and RFD is at the wrong angle. Those corrections will have the greatest return on improving start efficiency. etc. Think track starts, the running kind.

    We do between 10-12 starts a week and between 6-8 SLJ per week. We only do 2 starts at a time with attention to PERFECT, with the SLJs, (do them from the blocks) its about getting them to understand that you will travel further if everything stays connect. Once a month we set-up the reaction plates and get reaction times. The funny thing is, well it’s not really funny, It’s had little to no impact on reaction time. The women are still in the .67 with stdev .033 and the men in the .65 with stdev .032, that’s 50/100 swimmers. Those RT’s track very close to what the top 8 at Seniors/NCAA average. My guess is that’s probably why they don’t do land base sports:)

    Comments on your post about land base vs. aquatic posture. 100% true. That’s the angle Bill Boomer and Milt Nelms come from, in that we have to “reshape” how we position ourselves in the water. We work on it to exhaustion here “Create shape before movement”, “don’t let the boat sink”, “hold the line” etc.. If they can “get it” and apply it to their swimming it’s the best time spent with the greatest impact.

    Just thoughts


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Reverse Periodization #3315
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Ryan,
    As I read the study. I had to convert strokes/minute to cycles/second. We use c/S.
    The TP group had lower SR (1.33 c/S) and greater SL = slower time.
    The RP group had higher SR (1.23) and lower SL = faster times.

    My best SWAG is the old saying “stay long and finish your stroke” maybe isn’t the best way to go? That the RP group is in a more normal stroke rhythm? Plus, they probably train at that SR/SL everyday. I know when I take c/S in practice during RP sets. They are VERY close to what they do in a meet. We do computerized race analysis on every swim at dual and invites. So I can compare RP to actually race and watching the 1650/1000, again is Soooo exciting. But it has to be done and “it’s a small price to pay to be one of America’s finest” πŸ™‚

    I know that s/M & c/S are factors of strength and maybe TP with all the focus on endurance training (high volume) trained the fast out of them from a neuromuscular/CNS stand point? In other words they trained the “cat” right out of them or like riding donkeys instead of thoroughbreds.

    There is also a difference large difference in MDC and we know that a reduction in drag is the best and easiest way to go faster. So you’re comments on technical skill maybe spot on.

    That’s my thoughts.
    Doc


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Dry-land Training #3312
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Holy crap! Someone who gets it! You have no idea the number of years I’ve tried to explain this to coaches and especially S&C at the college level. You’d think I was speaking Russian.

    You are dead on about fish. Take birds. They don’t run on the ground to increase “athleticism” so they can fly faster. They just fly, faster.

    Check out “Science of Swimming site” by Dr. Mullen. He has a PhD in Physical Therapy and has an interesting take on lifting/dryland.

    There is intelligent life in the universe!

    Just an FYI. The fastest male in 100 back DI dosen’t lift.


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Season end data #3308
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Coach,
    Kevin is dead on!

    Let’s just start with the basics.
    25s are on 1:00
    50s are on 2:00
    50s are ALSO on 1:00
    75s pick an interval that the kids can hold pace.
    100s are usually on 2:00.

    The whole number of repetitions is answered in a search.

    Sorry this takes work on your part. But I’m getting a sense right or wrong, you are asking for coaches to just GIVE you what they know and some have spent years i.e. Kevin and others on this forum, discussing, understanding and sharing what worked and what didn’t work.

    I have a suggestion. You search on this site either “doc or “oldschool”


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Season end data #3307
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Coach,
    Yes, it’s a lot of rest. But you are asking for very fast speeds. When you figure they are at 1/2 50 speed, going from a push and you want guys under 10 seconds, they need it. I have some coaches that go out to 3 minutes with some of their kids. They send me their data and the interesting thing is whether on 2:00 or 3:00, correlations are very close. We only use “nx502′” to either work on power for the sprinters or for “speed reserve (S.R.)” with Mid-Dist and Distance kids. Yes, distance kids. If you can’t increase their maximum velocity and rely on just increasing volume. You and your swimmer are in for a very frustrating time. Especially after they reach Peak Height Velocity or PHV. Goggle it.

    For 100s trng. I use “nx502” for pwr and S.R. The main sets used are “nx25on1′”at 1/2 first 50 time, “nx50on2′” at 2nd 50 of 100 split and “nx50on1′” at the average of 2, 3, & 4 of a 200. You have to look at it like it’s a 5000 piece puzzle. So that’s why the “nx501′” They have to feel the “sting”

    For 200s trng. I use “nx251′” again gives them some S.R., “nx502′” If you look at your data, you’d see that the first 50 of 200, is very close to back 1/2 of 100. Kind of a 2for1, “nx501′” and “nx75 (using avg. divided by 2 and adding back into avg), again look at your data. 75s because they hold better speed and technique. I will normally cycle 2 sets of 75s and then go a set of “nx100″(back 1/2 of 200), just checking to see if we can’t push the speed out.

    Just remember you have to address not only freestyle by any secondary stroke they have and that doubles the amount of data you have to account for.


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in πŸ™‚

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 125 total)