doc
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Interesting. You kinda explained your “deceleration” with the “We haven’t really been taking this set seriously yet” Think of training as a puzzle and the more pieces you have the better you can see the picture.
I’m going to guess that your second 50 split of 100fr is in the 27.39 range? Your 100fr time would suggest on “50s on :50/1:00” be no slower than 30.86.
Also, you may think about flipping the sets occasionally. Take your short rest 50s and do them as the first set. It may allow you to get past 5. There is an accumulation of fatigue that occurs during a workout.
Just some quick thoughts
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Ryan,
You might want to really look into Firebelly. It was a learning function and the cost is under the gen3 apple watch, plus it does a lot more for swimmers. While back I’d asked the software developer to include turn times in the app and he did it. Super nice guy. The distance kids have kind of a love hate relationship with Firebelly as its always in their ear. It’s pretty trick stuff. There is another program on the market and that’s Triton Wear. Problem is it’s so damn expensive. Don’t get me wrong it gathers great metrics and at the gold level has all the “bells and whistles” but is $40/month. Firebelly is $229 and all upgrades are free downloads.p.s. I’m not a rep for Firebelly. Just helping the guy develop the system for swimmers that generates useful information.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Ryan,
There is a lot of logic in your methodology. Have you tried using a Tempo Trainer? On setting 1 you can get the exact time for repeats. We use number of beeps for rest. example 1:1 would be 1 beep or 1:2 would be 2 beeps you get the idea. There is a new gadget on the market called “Firebelly”. Firebelly is kinda interesting in that it talks to you (may not want that when you’re about to puke :). You can set it up through an app (download is free) in your phone and download the parameters for the set to the Firebelly. It can give you time, cycles, turn speeds and tempo. I’ve used it for my distance kids and the feedback has been positive. I will say “it can be information overload” and found that about two metrics is about all they can handle for right now.To mark distance. We use highway cones on the bottom of the pool for oddball distances and more so for LCM training. But it works also for SCY/SCM. At least the kids have a target to shoot for.
Just throwing it out there.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Marlin,
I’d agree. We have currently the fastest 100 backstroker in DI and he is long bodied and short legged. He has unbelievable underwater work.Just and FYI,
I’m currently working with some software KINOVEA.org, it’s a free download and for the everyday coach it is all they would need. I will say this is it dosen’t play well with Windows 10, but still gets the job done. It can do just about everything Dartfish can do and save you $2k. It would allow you to measure the distance you talk about or come really close. I use it with our kids on underwater work, angles in starts, turns, Br & Fly.Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Ryan,
The practice of “dynamic correspondence”? Kinda. Big buzz word especially in the S&C community at least here it is. For those that may not be familiar with D.C. It was first used by the late Dr. Yuri Verkhoshansky, of the former Soviet Union. He developed the basic criteria for the “specific exercises”.
1. That the exercise duplicates (not mimics) the same neuromuscular pathway/joint angles as seen in the execution of the competitive skill.
2. That the exercise develop strength over the same ROM as it is displayed in the execution on the competitive skill.
3. That the exercise duplicates (not mimics) the same type of muscular contraction as seen in execution of the competitive skill.Using the criteria from above it’s really hard to find an exercise that duplicates (not mimics) starts other than doing starts. I guess Dr. Costill, would say “want to be better/faster at starts, then do starts faster/better”. Just doing whatever number of starts per week if not timed, you have no idea if they are getting faster. Just increasing the load probably not going to solve that. Pwr=F/T.
I believe it’s more a biomechanical issue and acceleration problem, not reps and loading. More specifically biomechanically joint angles at hip and ankles etc. Are the hips lower than their head? (won’t be very fast) and RFD is at the wrong angle. Those corrections will have the greatest return on improving start efficiency. etc. Think track starts, the running kind.
We do between 10-12 starts a week and between 6-8 SLJ per week. We only do 2 starts at a time with attention to PERFECT, with the SLJs, (do them from the blocks) its about getting them to understand that you will travel further if everything stays connect. Once a month we set-up the reaction plates and get reaction times. The funny thing is, well it’s not really funny, It’s had little to no impact on reaction time. The women are still in the .67 with stdev .033 and the men in the .65 with stdev .032, that’s 50/100 swimmers. Those RT’s track very close to what the top 8 at Seniors/NCAA average. My guess is that’s probably why they don’t do land base sports:)
Comments on your post about land base vs. aquatic posture. 100% true. That’s the angle Bill Boomer and Milt Nelms come from, in that we have to “reshape” how we position ourselves in the water. We work on it to exhaustion here “Create shape before movement”, “don’t let the boat sink”, “hold the line” etc.. If they can “get it” and apply it to their swimming it’s the best time spent with the greatest impact.
Just thoughts
? All that is not shared... is lost.Ryan,
As I read the study. I had to convert strokes/minute to cycles/second. We use c/S.
The TP group had lower SR (1.33 c/S) and greater SL = slower time.
The RP group had higher SR (1.23) and lower SL = faster times.My best SWAG is the old saying “stay long and finish your stroke” maybe isn’t the best way to go? That the RP group is in a more normal stroke rhythm? Plus, they probably train at that SR/SL everyday. I know when I take c/S in practice during RP sets. They are VERY close to what they do in a meet. We do computerized race analysis on every swim at dual and invites. So I can compare RP to actually race and watching the 1650/1000, again is Soooo exciting. But it has to be done and “it’s a small price to pay to be one of America’s finest” 🙂
I know that s/M & c/S are factors of strength and maybe TP with all the focus on endurance training (high volume) trained the fast out of them from a neuromuscular/CNS stand point? In other words they trained the “cat” right out of them or like riding donkeys instead of thoroughbreds.
There is also a difference large difference in MDC and we know that a reduction in drag is the best and easiest way to go faster. So you’re comments on technical skill maybe spot on.
That’s my thoughts.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Holy crap! Someone who gets it! You have no idea the number of years I’ve tried to explain this to coaches and especially S&C at the college level. You’d think I was speaking Russian.
You are dead on about fish. Take birds. They don’t run on the ground to increase “athleticism” so they can fly faster. They just fly, faster.
Check out “Science of Swimming site” by Dr. Mullen. He has a PhD in Physical Therapy and has an interesting take on lifting/dryland.
There is intelligent life in the universe!
Just an FYI. The fastest male in 100 back DI dosen’t lift.
? All that is not shared... is lost.Coach,
Kevin is dead on!Let’s just start with the basics.
25s are on 1:00
50s are on 2:00
50s are ALSO on 1:00
75s pick an interval that the kids can hold pace.
100s are usually on 2:00.The whole number of repetitions is answered in a search.
Sorry this takes work on your part. But I’m getting a sense right or wrong, you are asking for coaches to just GIVE you what they know and some have spent years i.e. Kevin and others on this forum, discussing, understanding and sharing what worked and what didn’t work.
I have a suggestion. You search on this site either “doc or “oldschool”
? All that is not shared... is lost.Coach,
Yes, it’s a lot of rest. But you are asking for very fast speeds. When you figure they are at 1/2 50 speed, going from a push and you want guys under 10 seconds, they need it. I have some coaches that go out to 3 minutes with some of their kids. They send me their data and the interesting thing is whether on 2:00 or 3:00, correlations are very close. We only use “nx502′” to either work on power for the sprinters or for “speed reserve (S.R.)” with Mid-Dist and Distance kids. Yes, distance kids. If you can’t increase their maximum velocity and rely on just increasing volume. You and your swimmer are in for a very frustrating time. Especially after they reach Peak Height Velocity or PHV. Goggle it.For 100s trng. I use “nx502” for pwr and S.R. The main sets used are “nx25on1′”at 1/2 first 50 time, “nx50on2′” at 2nd 50 of 100 split and “nx50on1′” at the average of 2, 3, & 4 of a 200. You have to look at it like it’s a 5000 piece puzzle. So that’s why the “nx501′” They have to feel the “sting”
For 200s trng. I use “nx251′” again gives them some S.R., “nx502′” If you look at your data, you’d see that the first 50 of 200, is very close to back 1/2 of 100. Kind of a 2for1, “nx501′” and “nx75 (using avg. divided by 2 and adding back into avg), again look at your data. 75s because they hold better speed and technique. I will normally cycle 2 sets of 75s and then go a set of “nx100″(back 1/2 of 200), just checking to see if we can’t push the speed out.
Just remember you have to address not only freestyle by any secondary stroke they have and that doubles the amount of data you have to account for.
? All that is not shared... is lost.The simplest answer is “the shortest interval that allows them to hold pace”.
? All that is not shared... is lost.This get’s a little tricky with distance swimmers. But instead of lowering your expectations to increase your chances of success. Why not reduce the distance to 150s and hold the same velocity of the 200s? More at race speed.
Very generic set. Repeat #s are just SWAGs.
8 x 200 @ target pace after fail move to
4-6 x 150s @ target pace after fail maybe move to
6-8 x 100s again @ TP.Couple days later reverse the set and start with 100s and see how far you can carry the speed. Stay with 20-30 rest. Remember it’s the pace you’re after and the volume covered at THAT pace.
Use this with D1 distance kids and it works well. I use 2x distance swum as marker i.e. swim 500 have to be able to hold 500 pace for 1000 or 1000/1650 swimmer has to be able to hold pace for 2000+. Not straight, but volume at pace. This is very glycogen depleting and you have to be careful in planning and sequences or you’ll end up riding a donkey.
Just thoughts
? All that is not shared... is lost.No. I just use total time divided by % of split. It gets me in the ballpark and I’ll make adjustments as we go throughout the season.
I track 33 athletes and write workouts for 3 groups. I try and keep it simple.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.I’ll chime in here,
Tritonwear has really trick metrics. Won’t argue that. You can get different metrics for your needs at different price points. The top of the line with all the things you’d need is $40/month/swimmer. Too expensive. I will say again, it’s trick. It also involves some set-up every day and if you are renting a pool that can get tiresome and you’d need a safe place to store it.Another product you might what to look in to is Firebelly. I got the owner/software designer to add turn times to the app. We have been using it with the distance kids for about a year now and the feedback is positive. It will actually talk to them (guys say it’s like listening to their girl friend, not sure that’s a positive :). It’ll tell them splits, cycles, tempo and now turn time. I’ve found that to be information overload. We stick to just 2 metrics for now and that’s working well. It’s in the $229/unit range and all the updates are free and you just download to your phone from Google or Apps stores. Working on the download from the app to EXCEL to get it a little more functional for coaches.
Worth looking in to.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Attached is a copy of % worksheet. This is for women and based off data of the top 3 in each event from 2016 NCAAs. I do have the 1650, it’s just it won’t fit on one page 🙂
I just load best time in the BOLDED outlined cell and it will generate splits and training paces for me. With the kids that have been in the program I’ll load mid-season goal speed in and we start to work.
The .985 is the “slack” so to speak. I give them off original/goal speed (they like to have some cushion) and with “unloading” we can cover that base. I went down that “rabbit hole” years ago with training pace was goal speed. If you can tolerate very low numbers made and spissed off swimmers have at it. I figured “discretion is the better part of valor” 🙂
In the past 2 years I gave them .97 and this year I cut it in half. So far the results are promising. It did take about 2 weeks longer for them to adjust to not having that “just little bit” extra. But have now settled in well.
Just throwing stuff out there. If anyone uses it fine, if not you won’t hurt my feelings.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Ryan,
Not trying to upset you. Your data on using stdev. is great and I like it. But I tend to think of the audience. Truthfully, most coaches aren’t going to take the time to learn and understand standard deviations and what it can tell them. i.e. technical skill or level of fitness, etc. or how to get EXCEL to do it for them. I can’t tell you the number of coaches I receive data from that can’t or don’t know how to format time in EXCEL or even use EXCEL (hint: YouTube). They’re busy, many with other jobs that actual pay the bills and coach for the love of the sport. I try and think how can I make it easier? help them be better and their swimmers. 1. Use the information they already have (i.e. splits or total time) without adding more than they are doing. 2. Understand what they have and 3. Maybe some ideas/thoughts on how to utilize it. The whole idea of the evolution of the system was “1 coach and 24 swimmers”Enjoy the conversation. It makes me think and thanks for sharing.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.
