oldschoolc
Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Billratio,
For me your best idea was getting her to narrow down and focus on 3-4 events. If you can’t then your thoughts are correct in that you are going to have to depend on some cross-over. When I have kids that swim multiples I use an IM approach and that way it will cover most of their events. The tricky one is the 50 free.Here are some formats I’ve used.
Format I
25s fly
25s ba
25s br
50s frFormat II
25s fly
50 ba
25s br
50s frFormat III
25s fly
25s ba
50s br
100s free, seen a correlation of ½ the pace time equals 2IM spilt and covers our 200 free. Look at your race splits for IM and see if you see the same thing? Or could just be my kids.I have tried 50s fly but the technical breakdown as numbers get higher I just won’t tolerate.
With the 50 free, it just doesn’t fit with the other events well. I’ve tried getting in 6-8 x 25s or 10-12 12.5s (with longer rests you know the routine :)) at pace right after warm-up to address the power aspect and keep away from CNS depression. We’ll do it 3 x per week.
Have fun!
Oldschool"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
100 free best time 58.00, plus 3 seconds would be out in 1:01ish plus 3 seconds for second 100 would be 1:04ish for back 1/2 100. 200 free time would be in the 2:05 low to 2:06ish.
100 BT plus 3 equals first 100 split
First 100 split plus 3 equals 2nd 100 splitUse Excel and make your own!
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
I don’t care if you think “if” is hypothetical. His best time in 2013-14 was 19.76. he’d better be able to go 10.00 for 25s.
He is also not doing them with 10 seconds rest.
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Billratio,
You mentioned she had problems at the finish. If you take snapshots of tempo did her tempo slow down? If you don’t then and this is kinda a “touchy feelly” type of thing, but was your observation that her tempo slowed down or did she get “spinny” loss of distance per stroke (d/S)? If you think either one of those things happened then maybe the focus should be on the back ½ and maintenance for the front ½. So, the 12.5s I would probably do and change the 25s from a dive to push 25s on 1:00 or even 1:30 from a push focusing on not letting tempo drop or losing d/S the last 12.5. It’s more a focus on back to front then front to back. With only 4 days training adaption is minimal at best and will be more brain massage and awareness then anything. She knows she can go fast and she just needs to clean up that last 12.5 and you can use that during practice as reinforcement.Why I asked for the 50 times was there are calculations that can be done to determine speed reserve and I just wanted to see how she compared with my kids. I will tell you this she is in good shape!
My SWAG on her is 24.79 to 24.87; remember SWAG is a Scientific Wild Ass Guess. But that is better than a WAG!
I hope this helps!
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Billratio,
NICE JOB! Think of you have learned in just a few short months and how much better you’ll be next year when you take that information forward! Now you can show athletes that training matches performance and performance matches training.“I fear revealing some of this data will make me sound like a horrible USRPT coach” No what you sound like is a coach who used his data to make a decision on how to help an athlete go faster. Her avg 25 speed was 15.96, and her target time was 16.00, man that’s not “horrible” that’s smart!
Just an FYI, you can make training adaptation without failure and by going them on 1:00; you probably opened some “speed reserve” for them.
After things settle down and you have time to look back on race to training and vise versa you’ll start to see patterns, strengths and even more important weakness. Then the journey begins!
Again Nice Job!
Oh and by the way GO PACK GO!
Oops probably should have asked this before the above comment. What were your girls 50 times? Couldn’t find “crazy” on my stopwatch
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Gary P,
Why doesn’t your example for the 200s work for the 100?I have guys that go 10.23 to 10.47 and are nowhere near MA capabilities or size. So why would 10.00 be a hypothetical time for MA?
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Rick,
Funny how those Russian are!You are on the right track with your adjustments with regards to training.
Do you time each repeat or do you have them get their own times?
You have the answer for the front half pace 🙂 take your 12.0 x 2, that’s a 24, figure in Stdev of .31 (from my data) and he’d be out in 24.62, so close. It also gives you the 100 breast 1st 50.
Suggestion: if you would have him go a set of 4 x 50 on 1:30/2:00 either free or breast and record each one, figure the average and standard deviation. Please if you would then post his avg and Stdev
I’ll help you with the Parametric System. Just not on this forum. Email recondoc@ionet.net
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Billratio,
There’s a problem with the Rushall/Andrews’ correlation in that 10.00 would be 40 seconds plus 1 second would mean a 41 second 100 and his best time is 43.90? There are a number of questions I have with how they are going about projecting race performance. If you use Bill Sweetenham’s 1.00 turn speed for freestyle and backstroke then you would have to add in 3.0 seconds which would be 43.00, and in 2014 MA best time was 43.90? What happened?
Just an FYI, the fastest men in the world turn in the neighborhood of .88, which would be adding in 2.64 seconds for 100s.Please, Please post data from your section meet i.e. first 50 split, 2nd 50 split of 100s and 50s splits for 200s. Good, bad or otherwise. This is the ONLY way to see what is happening with training vs. race performance.
Best to you and your swimmers at sections
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Rick,
Your amount done is very much in line with our work. We rarely get beyond 20 x 25 or 16 x 50; usually we’ll have a shift in speed long before we get to Dr. Rushall’s guess in numbers that need to be done. What we’ve seen is after 20 x 25 for 100 swimmers and in the neighborhood of 16 x 50 for 200 swimmers doing more kinda becomes a point of diminishing returns and maybe better spent working on technical skills.What do you mean by “implementing Parametric Training”?
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Dr. Paul,
Correct the other 50% is skill and or recovery.“Rules” apply 2 in a row out and 3 for the set. I’ll ask the same question “What do you do with the kid that’s out at 6 of a set of 20 x 50?” and you have 20-40 kids in the pool, parents watching and maybe asking why is so and so (might even be their kid) sitting on the deck while the others are still swimming? You kinda answered it in your post that you have them do it all.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not condemning it. True Dr. Rushall would tell you then you’re not doing USRPT and you would agree. But you are doing what is practical for your situation.
As soon as coaches started recording and looking over data. I knew this was going to get messy.
Have a hard time getting off the soap box 🙂
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Rob,
“Rules” apply 2 in a row out and 3 for the set. I’ll ask you a question “What do you do with the kid that’s out at 6 of a set of 20 x 50?” and you have 20-40 kids in the pool, parents watching and maybe asking why is so and so (might even be their kid) sitting on the deck while the others are still swimming?I knew coaches would look at USRPT and say hey this sounds really good with solid science backing it up and it has volume. Well kinda and it has it’s own set of problems.
I guess I’m one of those guys Dr. Rushall rails about “done this along time” and “guru”. Well the problem is I have. I’ve followed the basic fundamentals’ of USRPT 1.travel at a determined race speed and often 2. Let them stop when they can’t make pace and 3. I RECORD THE DATA.
Sorry. Get carried away about this stuff.
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Billratio,
Will do.Nope we have 6 practices that average 2500ish offered. We only do doubles over Christmas break and Summer time, just too many external stressors during the school year.
You ask an interesting question. First the 3 day protocol is a % reduction in work offered for everyone regardless of % made. The % difference between swimmers doesn’t seem to have that big of an impact with regards to say % improvement i.e. 60% vs. 33%, the 60% doesn’t really drop more time than the 33%. They will both go faster and have the same improvement rate. From what we see the only real difference between the higher percent and lower percent is race performances during season the higher kids swim at or are faster in-season on a more consistent basis. Makes since “Mastery of their craft”
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Matt’s question as I read it was: “offering” 60% of total volume at RP” which can be done. But “making 60% of what is offered at RP” is a whole different ball game. I’ll use one of my workouts as an example. TVW is 4k for the workout and of that 4k, 2000 is “offered” at RP might be 14 x 50, then 10 x 100 and finish with 12 x 25 that is 2k “offered” at RP or 50%. So using “making” 60% is 1,250 of that 2k as a goal is “going to get interesting”. Because the chart I posted just shows that’s not easy to do and shows what real live “plug and chug” swimmers are achieving.
“Too much at pace” question: No. Every athlete has what we now believe is 3 ceilings; Technical, Physiological and Psychological. What we have seen is the technical and psychological ceilings break before they reach the physiological. It’s not that they become injured or the like, it’s just that they start to struggle with the technical skills to reach that next speed and mentally for whatever reasons don’t believe they can. Hope that makes sense.
The rates of improvement that I have posted on other threads are based off theses same kids. I think coaches are somehow led to believe that you have to be achieving near 100% of the 20-30 x 25s, 30-40 x 50s and x number of 75s in order to perform and that’s simply not true. The chart shows that and these are kids that know no other way to swim but at RP in practice. True the more the swimmer can show “mastery” i.e. higher numbers made. The more consistent they will be with regards to performance. But those in that 30-40% range swim just as fast. Example just had a boy go 1:59.52, 200IM this weekend and in not one of his protocol sets is he over 41% made. Last year at this time he was 2:06.33. I had 7 swimmers in that same meet that did roughly the same thing with regards to % and performance.
On average at this stage of the season I’ll offer between 15,000 to 16,000 yds per week. Which at 50% would be 7,500 to 8,000yds “made” as the chart shows it’s really more like 30-40% and the numbers at RP look more like 3,450 to 4,500.
I just did one in Fargo ND, in May.
Hope this helps.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
60% “offered” isn’t going to be hard. We average 51 – 55% “offered” per workout every day right now. If it’s “made 60% at RP” that’s going get interesting.
I attached a chart of “n x 50 fr” LCM. The reason for LCM is no school to interfere with the numbers. We use 60% made as a goal for each set we do. You can see from the chart how that’s working out.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Billratio,
What where you “hoping” for? From what you stated your kids was pretty well.FYI. At the Olympics games in swimming the rate of improvement is only 25%, so your 68% is well ahead of that! I guess you can look at the “hole in the donut or the whole donut”.
So you’d have to say they got what they trained for? I would use this as a teachable moment and show that those that held pace in training swam faster and those that didn’t for whatever reason didn’t achieve PB/BT or whatever. My question is “why are you guessing as to them swimming their paces”?
1. Don’t “freak out”. You can never show chaos or uncertainty! You have to project an air of confidence and calm. Yes, your insides are churning a mile a minute and at times you fell like you’re ready to puke. But never display a lack of confidence as your athletes will pick up on that.
2. I’m a club coach that has to get kids ready to swim fast for the end of the high school season and I think you know from the posts on this site I have a pretty good handle on what it takes to swim fast. The majority of my kids will swim in the last chance to qualify for HS State next weekend. This is exactly what I’m going to do. Monday we will be at current numbers (regular training day), Tuesday I’ll reduce the numbers by 25%, Wednesday another 25% and then on Thursday they will do a meet warm-up and Friday they start the meet. This is our 3-day protocol.
I’m not trying to be mean here but you have to post numbers! “Holding her pace and “she works so hard” means nothing. I know what you what your’re trying to say and we all have kids that we want to do well because they work and believe in what we say. But without numbers it’s anecdotal.
You’re correct with when in doubt “error on the side of rest”. But this is something you have to determine. There’s something in your gut that just tells you that you need to start earlier with certain swimmers.
Best to you and your swimmers!
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
