oldschoolc
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Greg,
Attached is a cycle that I use during the HS season for my club kids. You’ll see that I don’t make 200s of the stroke a primary emphasis (pri) as they don’t swim 200s of the stroke in HS. It’s not rocket science. I have from second week in November to mid/end of March to get them ready for 200s, if I can’t get them ready in that amount of time then I’m doing something wrong.100s. I don’t have any correlations on 75s to 200 race performance. I do have back ½ 100s to 200s race performance and that’s .987 – .95673. I can see the logic doing 75s early in season. They carry better speed and probably technical skill until fitness levels come up. But I would be careful making performance predictions off that without any data.
Mix. Why? So you can fill 2 hours plus/minus of practice time? Spend the time on starts, turns, underwater work, breakouts and surface swimming skills.etc. will pay greater dividends than whatever “traditional distance training” is.
Just ideas
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Billratio,
Sorry we must have been posting at the same time and I didn’t see our last one.You are on the right track. If you feel 10 x 50 works then use it. Just make sure she is going faster each time.
Do you have her avg. speed for the 100s?
I never say they can’t because as soon as you do that they go out and make you look like a ding bat. But the reality of the situation is that if the athlete was been off BT by more than 5%, it does make things rough.
If she could get in the 5:30 anything or even swim a season best. I think you would positive ammo for the next meet and build on her confidence that she is headed in the right direction.
Best to you and your swimmer.
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Billratio,
Yes it is. If you keep at this coaching thing long you’re going to have a lot more and it always seems to be the ones that just bust their butt in practice, never miss and are just flat out nice kids. At our parent meetings with the group I go over this very thing. They get it mentally, but struggle emotionally.I have an idea. If you have the lane space try this. It’s the 2nd strategy of the Parametric System and it might work at least for mental massage. Drop down to having her go 8 x 25 on 1:00, 8 x 50 on 50/1:00 and 5 x 100 on 1:30/2:00. You will need to time and record each repeat and figure standard deviation (Excel can do this). This is “distance constant and speed increasing” she should get faster e.g. she has been holding 33.1 on her 50s, now doing only 8 she should be able to lower that to say 32.7 (1%) or better. Same would go for the 25s. If you’ve not been doing 100s then maybe just do 3 x 100. Each time she does the sets you have to have her avg and st. dev. ready from the last test so she knows she is trying to go faster again.
You can do the 25s and 100s at the same practice with a long recovery between or 25s and 50s. I’d stay away from 50s and 100s at the same practice. Too close in energy systems. Figure back from meet and start maybe ten days out doing 1 to 2 tests sets each practice with a technical /recovery day in between. I’d be careful of doing the sets more than twice in the ten days. They tend to start not being able to lower the avg. and that just starts another “emotional event”
it’s worht a try and it may help with her confidence and you can build off that.
hope this make sense
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
izSwimming and Rick,
Parametric 1st strategy approach is “distance is increasing and speed constant” so at 21-30 days you should have had an increase in numbers offered and numbers made from 12 x distance to 16-20 x distances (roughly). They can swim faster longer. Now if it’s early in the season that they are able to accomplish this then yes you adjust speed. If it’s later in the season then you have to be careful about adjusting speeds as this may have an effect on 2nd strategy which is “distance is constant and speed in increasing”Any time you adjust speed faster there will be a reduction in numbers made and that’s to be expected.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Billratio,
Women! This is a rough one. The problem is women swim in two different boats. The preadolescent boat has no hips, no breasts, little to no adipose tissue and everything you throw at them works (records books are littered with them and especially in the breaststrokes). Then they start menstruation in which time you have about 1 ½ – 2 years until the dreaded second boat appears in which hips start to widening, breast start to develop and the gradual addition of adipose tissue. Not a path to elite athletic performance. It is a very frustrating situation for both coach and athlete and it’s no one’s fault, it’s just what is. It’s a biological function and happens to all women. Now not all women go thru this; some were very good at picking their parents.Based off her BT she would need to be 1:05.31 for her 100s and her 50 times doubled are 1:06.2, even at the 5:26, she will probably have a rough time equaling that.
The best advice is “rest” in personal communication with Ernie Maglischo “he always started that when in doubt error on the side of rest” Maybe start four days out with a 10% to 15% reduction, then move to 25% toward 50%. PURE GUESS ON MY PART. What’s your gut tell you?
Question: You stated that the tech suit had played a part in the improvement in performance of her 200 from 2:07.9 to 2:30.1, that’s a 3.75% improvement which is pretty good. What percent of that do you think was due to the suit?
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
izSwimming,
You obviously have a pretty good handle on the system. Your protocol sets are event specific and race speed and if you start doing some correlations between race splits and training sets you should see some pretty interesting numbers.200 pace work. Unless on occasion he swims the 200, probably no need to swim the “50s on 1:00” or “n x 100 on 2:00”. If he does, then I’d keep it at “lower level of improvement” for “n x 50 on 50/1:00”, doing no more than 9-12, just short of one shift. Just another FYI, here is what we’ve seen for 200s: “n x 50 on 50/1:00” , the average of 2, 3, & 4 is .987 – .99815 and “n x 100” is .987 – .95673 to back ½ 100 of 200. (You do have to factor in standard deviation)
Secondary stroke. We have protocol sets for their primary and secondary events. But my kids are 14-18 years old so still have some work to do with regard to event specificity. In an older swimmer that knows they are a 50/100 freestyler not sure swimming a secondary will make any improvements (Principle of Specificity). Again if on occasion they dabble in the 50/100 of another stroke I’d keep it to “n x 25s” on :30/1:00 and lower level improvement say 6-8, again just short of one shift. If you do decide to add a secondary stroke an indicator will be impact on numbers made in primary stroke. If he starts to “back slide” from previous cycles. I’d pitch the secondary work. Did that with a swimmer I had in 08, he was 3rd at WUG and 12th at USOT in the 50 and we dropped the 100 back work that summer.
Hope this makes sense.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
izSwimming,
Your approach is more Parametric System 1st strategy NICE!I have found something always gets lost in converting and can never get an exact match and I’ve tried just about every conversion table/formula out there. So .08 is really good! Just an FYI our correlations are “n x 25” doubled .996-.998 to front ½ 100 pace and “n x 50 on 2:00”, .997-.99939 to back ½ 100.
Thoughts on your questions:
On the “peak number” or we call “accumulation of potential” it appears to be in the 40% plus range of total number offered. That’s not to say that swimmers below that number are not going to swim fast it’s just that the reliability of performance can get a little inconsistent. I do have swimmers that may only achieve in the mid to high 20% and swim very fast each cycle. After 17 plus years of tracking this; I’m beginning to think it really doesn’t take much to create adaptation.
On “time to swim faster” I will use a couple of different indictors 1. Is performance “if you go faster, then you have to train faster”. It’s a double edge sword. The swimmers are all happy they went a best time and then they realize speeds are going to get faster at practice. 2. If they achieve max numbers two times in a row I’ll adjust speed and 3. Is how much time do I have until a peak performance meet?
If you use the 2nd strategy process of the Parametric System then you know that adjustment of speeds too late in the season/cycle may extend 2nd strategy and that has consciences with regards to lengthening that cycle and performance. That’s a whole other topic in itself.
Hope this helps
Oldschool"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Rick,
Try a tempo trainer if you have the lane space. Set it to 33s and he can be “no slower than”. It’s “beat the beep” using 50s. My guess is you will probably need to set it at ½ or 16.5, that way he would have feedback at the 25 as to correct pacing. So it would be 1st beep push-off, 2nd beep should be feet on the walling making turn or very close and 3rd should be finish. You can adjust rest anywhere from 1 beep (16.5s), w:r 1 to ½ out to how many beeps you think he needs.We have done this with 200/500 kids and its not easy. Especially at w:r 1 to ½. We have even done it to a ¼. We call them “slow learners” kids think it’s pretty funny.
You can get pretty creative with the workout and stay very close to USRP.
Your kicking question is interesting. I would ask: does it interfere with his 1.Body alignment (balance), 2.Power phase or 3.Rhythm/timing? Kinda the check list I use with regards to making stroke changes. Does it keep him from making pace times? Can’t hold consistent time/tempos/cycles? If you feel the kick is interfering with any of those then a change may be warranted.
If you buy into that the kick is really a mechanism for balance and really doesn’t provide much in the way of propulsion and it’s not messing with alignment, power phase, rhythm and he can hold what he needs to within the metrics given. Why mess with something that may not be broke?It may be a point of diminishing returns?
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Billratio,
So you’d say you are in pretty good shape? If you haven’t relayed that to your athletes’ you need too! It lends credence to the system. The kids that have “bought” into the system are the easy ones. They understand that a 50 not on tempo will affect their time or to slow a turn will impact their time. Trust them, they get it and one sub-par meet/performance will not “break” them. My kids get it when I say “your tempo dropped to 1.65 into the turn on the 100 back and their response is usually “crap” if you are objective with them, they get it!Meets are “snap shots” of where your athletes are in training. It has consciences those that perform during practice i.e. making high number (mastery) will always perform and seem to be at more consistence in their performances week end and week out then those that for whatever reason don’t perform i.e. attendance, lower numbers, I think you know the excuses, etc.
I’m glad the adjustment to rest interval helped with br/fl. Remember when you are up to your ass in alligators the primary objective was to drain the swamp. You have to THINK! There is NOTHING magical about 20 second rest interval. It is purely a guess! I will debate the good Dr Rushall on this any day of the week!
You can and your kids WILL be successful and it won’t take 6 months. Remember this is coming from a 65 year old swimmer (no disrespect. I’m 60) and while Mr. Gruber may be a world record holder he’s not a 13 + year old swimmer.
The best to you and your season!
I will share what I know and if I don’t know I’ll let you know.
OldschoolC
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Rick,
Now you’re cooking with “peanut oil” (sorry Duck Destiny fan)! You are doing exactly what others should be doing! It’s called getting better! It is never a “waste of time” to time your swimmers it shows accountability! And you are not going to lower your “expectations to increase their chances of success”. I do it with 18-22 swimmers every day and still get technical work in. God damn right it’s hard and you go home exhausted. But you know you are not going to be the weak link. “Athlete centered and performance driven”“Repetitive” my kids have the same workout 3 times a week depending on the cycle; short to long or long to short. So, if we’re working stroke they will see the “exact” same workout 3 times during the week. It maybe M, T and then TH or some other combination and I have zero complaints. They accept the challenge “can I make more than I did the last time”.
Your sets are fine. They are distance appropriate. Just an FYI: I use to do 100s in stroke for kids that did the 200s of stroke and found speed were too slow and switched to 75s, because they could carry better speed and technical skill. Watch and see.
Rick, you have to remember that Dr. Rushall’s job doesn’t depend whether he’s right or not. Ours does, I’ve read every post on this site and not one coach has posted any numbers their kids are doing e.g. we are doing 20 x 25 and they did 16 or we make 90% of the number offered. Not happening! I believe they don’t record the number their kids made! My guess is your numbers are a lot closer to mine and you would be surprised.
Your ideas on your upcoming meets are “are not silly” You are trying to base it on the best data you have. Record data and evaluate. Rick, I have kids that have never swum under any other system and often remind me of protocols. That’s the problem with being 60
I will share what I have and if I don’t know I will tell you.
Personal email: recondoc@ionet.net
OldshoolC
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Billratio,
I would ask some questions 1. Are they faster now then last year at this time? Are they racing within say 2-3% of LTB? How are their race splits compared to what they hold in practice? My kids on the club that are swimming high school are all over the place with performances had a boy go 55.02 100 fly BT (he was racing one of his teammates from the club) and then the very next week go 1:03 against a team that had only 14 kids total. Has great numbers in practice and should really never swim that slow. Go figure.Your first question is easy. Not really, but there is an accumulation of fatigue that comes with the increasing numbers and you add external stressors such as school activities, homework which may reduce or disrupt sleep, diet and the list can get very long. All are or can be factors in performance consistency.
On the resting question I’d ask how often do your kids have meets? That combined with the numbers done in practice can have an impact on performances. You could do the 3 day protocol (club we only have 1 meet a month) but if you have a meet a week and maybe sometime two in a week you’re spending a lot of time resting and less on accumulation of potential which you are going to need at the end of the season. An idea might be to drop to just two sets of USRPT the day before and see if they don’t freshen up or do the 3 day and see, if you think that’s what they need. In personal communications with Ernie Maglischo he would always say “when in doubt error on the side of rest” p.s. it won’t ruin your season!
Good old breast and fly. For the 50s I have gone to the 1:10 may have to go to the 1:30 for them and probably for the pure high school swimmer not a bad idea. Also gone to :40 and some to the :50 for their 25s. We have lactate tested and used heart rate monitors and the rest difference is minimal at best. Use your race splits and compare them to practice times. If by giving them a little more rest they start making more at race pace that’s a bad thing?
Just some thoughts and ideas
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Ottercoach,
I’m guessing that you are a club coach as you stated “my oldest training group”In determining where to start a season we go back to last season’s best times and that becomes our baseline and that will usually put them “faster than last year at this time”. This usually allows them to dial in very quickly to pace and you don’t have to modify the “outs” and within a few weeks times will need adjusting (faster). I have done conversions from LCM to SCY/SCM and it’s always a mess. You can run a check and see. Look back on last SCY season and compare split times or averages which ever you want to use from 100s and 200s, etc. to what they are currently holding on sets. If you have the majority of the group travelling slower then you probably need to make adjustments. If they are faster then you are in “hog heaven” 🙂 and can create all kinds of teachable moments!
The “variety” issue seems to be a very common thread with coaches and the USRPT system. We have a saying “that if you want to be entertained. Then stay home and watch TV”. This is about human performance and that requires standardization of work so that the coach and athlete can compare performances from season to season, year to year and over a career. Its tedious work (record keeping) with requires a high level of commitment from the coach and the athlete. But once the coach and athlete understand how the sets relate to race performance it’s not boring, stale or any other adjective used. Once the athlete understands what it is that they are doing they will make comments during a set that “Hey, I made 3 more than last time” or “do you think I can go X in the X as I’ve been holding X on whatever set’” We use if you “max out the numbers” two times in a row it’s (call it mastery) time for pace adjustment, we call it “you get a dot” they will say “that’s twice, I get my dot” and boy you had better be ready to hear about it if you didn’t adjust their pace the next time.
I’m not trying to be mean. But this is not “plug and play”
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Rick,
How do you determine “overdue”?Idea on question 1. We experience the same “significant emotional event” when we lower the rest interval. What I have done in the past is on a set of say 20 x 50fr “Let’s see if we can do the first (pick a number) on :45, the rules apply, so outs count and then they get back in on the next interval. It seems to give them a challenge yet a light at the end of the tunnel. Some will even surprise themselves and do all on the fastest interval.
On question 2. You have to be careful when changing two variables at the same time i.e. rest interval and pace/speed. This is what we call a “double whammy” and can have unintended consequences. I learned the hard way on that one.
I would recommend only changing one at a time or as 6102 stated “lower the maximum number offered” That’s our first option here. If you have been going 20 x 50 and you adjust pace/speed or you decide it’s rest interval then go down to 12 and see what happens. The athletes will tell you if worked or not.
just some thoughts
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
We use the 2IM splits for all IM work as well. We’ll start with 25s at ½ IM split for that leg and work to 50s later in the season.
Early: target time is ½ 2IM split
10 x 25 fly
15 x 25 ba
20 x 25 br
25 x 25 frWe’ll then rotate in the 50s with the exception of the fly, always seems to get just too technically unsound.
Mid season
20 x 25 fly ½
12 x 50 ba using 2IM split
30 x 25 br ½
14 x 50 fr using 2IM splitOr
20 x 25 fly
30 x 25 ba
12 x 50 br
14 x 50 frBy the end of the cycle they should be able to handle
30 x 25 fly
14 x 50 ba
16 x 50 br
20 x 50 fr or 8 x 100 fr @ 2IM split times 2"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
billratio,
Probably 10-15. I wouldn’t etch that in stone but it’s pretty damn close. Rest interval of 10 to 15 seconds. Your set is fine. What you might want to do is start increasing the number of 100s and decrease the number of 75s and 50s. e.g. Maybe you go 6-8 x 100 @ 500 pace, then 6 x 75 @ 500 pace followed by 12 x 50 @ 500 pace with ever short rest (10 seconds) and see how they do. Don’t be afraid to experiment! If they can’t do it you do what you are already doing and that’s let them stop and shift to the next lower distance.Don’t worry about it being exactly USRPT. You have to remember that MA is really the only swimmer we know that is using USRPT and maybe a couple of season of SDSU college swimming. While Dr. Rushall’s ideas are based in well researched science the good Dr. has not shown any data that validates this. We in the field are the practioners and have to work with each other to figure out what works and what doesn’t.
Sorry for the soap box dialogue
Oldschoolc
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
