oldschoolc
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billratio,
Let the athlete be your guide. They will let you know again “when enough is enough” whether that be 50s, 25s or 12.5s. When they can no longer hold pace it’s time to quit. The biggest thing with the 50s and 25s is CNS depression. Pavlov states: “under such circumstances the cell protects itself from complete exhaustion. Thus, the cell will not react to external , or competition stimuli; consequently an expectation of outstanding performance towards the end of the competitive phase may be unrealistic”.Regarding rest interval I be at least 1:3, that’s work to rest. When in doubt error on the side of rest. (personnal communication with Erine Maglischo, author of Swimming Faster)
Sure. Here’s 3, 26.39, 26.82 and 26.84 LCM and all in the top 75 in the world. All 3 were under 23.04 for SCY.
As far as “being nervous about 1000ish yards” If that’s what she can do at race pace then ok. Trying to force adaption is where a lot of coaches get in to trouble as they feel that volume is some how the answer. Spend the rest of the time working on techincal skills at race pace. If you want her to swim the 200, then keep up the 200 training.
When I started this journey I had no one! Well a couple of Russian that were willing to share and I worked over 3 years to gain their condifence (well before email and blogs/forums). It was been a heck of a journey.
Just keep track of your data and adjust off that as needed. You base your training off the best information/data you have and you put it into play.
The best to you and anything I can help with I will!
Remember: It’s not the destination. It’s the journey.
OldschoolC
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
billratio,
I have to bow out gracefully here. I have no data on 50s to 500 pace correlations. I think it’s just to short of a distance for any reliable correlations. I do have 100s to 500s, which is .987-.95673.If they are turning at 1.0, then yes. But my guess is they are’nt even close to that in practice. I have to hammer my guys about turn speeds just about every set. I probably time 20 to 30 turns during each set and try and relay that information to them during rest interval, espicially if they start to struggle with pace. We work on “controlling pace with turn speeds and underwater work”
My suggestion would be to track the race splits and correlate to training pace and see.
Sorry, not much help here.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
billratio,
You are correct in your thinking and she will let you know when it’s “too much” as her numbers will not progress and if you let her stop and go to some type of recovery/technical aspect of the 100 e.g. turns, breakouts, etc. You should be fine regardless of how many times per week you do them. If numbers start to decrease maybe switch from 3 sets per workout to 2 and see if she doesn’t “freshen up” The athlete will tell you when “enough is enough” if you’re paying attention.Oh the 50! I have had the opportunity over the years to work with some of the fastest 50m/y swimmers in the US and Foreign athletes. Use your same guidelines/fundamentals. What’s important in the race? Reaction time, ability to overcome external resistance, technique, concentration and will power and muscle elasticity. For swimming it is start through turn and last 10 yards/meters. How to go fast in the first 30y/m, but not “all out” we call it “feathering”. I know it sounds funny that there is actually strategy in the 50.
Your “25s on 1:00” are great for the 100. However, they may be causing CNS disruption or “inhibition of protection” (Pavlov) which may explain her 50 times from week 2 to week 5. I would work “25s on 2:00”, as this has a more CNS component (this gets really tricky and you have to pay attention). The 12.5s are great; remember it’s about power generation and holding it for as long as you can.
I’ve used flag to finish with focus on last 10 yards (tempo trainer comes in handy here). Yes, no push-off. They will start from what we call a “balance-up” meaning they are already in the swimming layer at the flags. They go face down and when they hear the beep they swim like their feet are on fire and their!@# is catching. There is some research (limited) on this that helps with power generation.
Remember in all this the athlete will tell you what they can handle or not.
Just some thoughts
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
billratio,
You’re pretty much dead on and we do that for all 3 sets within workout. The reduced numbers comes with the expectation of high numbers made e.g., 80% or greater, and most will accomplish that. I think this gives them a high degree of confidence going into the meet.Not in a very long time 20+ years. When I was more into the TT mode it was always a crap shoot as to if they were going to swim fast (had no clue) and I was always in the 46-52% ranges. Great for the kids that swam fast, but very disappointing for the others that worked just as hard and didn’t reap any benefit. Kinda hard to tell a kid that has 80+ percent attendance that they need to work harder. I had to look at what I was doing and make a change.
Hope that makes sense
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Rick,
Data on turn times:This is from an article Bill Sweetenham wrote years ago. it’s about the easiest way to measure and you can do it at practice or meets and remain consistent. It’s really just “get your feet on the wall as fast as you can”
Freestyle & Backstroke. measured from last hand hit to foot touch (1 second)
Breaststroke & Butterfly measured from hand touch to foot touch (.77 seconds)We are in the 1.2 for fr & ba and .83 for br & fl
if it helps
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
The attached is the cycle we currently use. All work is short course meters.
Week 1 Monday: Primary emphasis is 200 free with secondary 100 free
Short to long is set/distance design. Example we start with 25s or 50s for first set with goal of improving the number done from last time. The second set maybe 75s at the previous number done with trying to maintain the previous number done and the third set maybe 100s at 20% below previous number offered.
Example set might be:
20 x 25 fr on :30 at 200 pace (last time numbered offered was 18), looking for improvement in numbers made.
10-15 minutes of technical work with emphasis on skills needed for next set.
12 x 50 fr on :50 at 200 pace (last time 12 offered, made 8, maintain at least 8).
10-15 minutes of technical work. Again with emphasis on skills needed for next set.
5 x100 fr on 1:30 at back ½ pace of 100 (last time did 8 x 100) goal here is to maintain numbers done in previous set.Reason for reduction is “accumulation of fatigue” from set to set. It does happen!
Week 2 Monday: Primary emphasis is 100 stroke with secondary either IM/STK
Week 2 Monday: Long to short again is set/distance designed. Start with 50s on 1:30/2:00 with target time of back ½ 50 of 100 and goal of doing more than last time offered. Second set might be 25s on :30 at ½ first 50 pace at previous number done trying to at least maintain numbers done and the third set might before for the IMers 49 x 25 as 10x 25 fly, 12 x 25 ba, 13 x 25br and 14 x 25fr all at ½ 200im pace all on :30.
Example set might be:
16 x 50 stk on 1:30/2:00 at back ½ 100 pace (last time numbered offered was 14), looking for improvement in numbers made.
10-15 minutes of technical work with emphasis on skills needed for next set.
16 x 25 stk on :30 at 100 pace (last time 14 offered, made 11, maintain at least 11).
10-15 minutes of technical work. Again with emphasis on skills needed for next set.
May be 30 x 25 on :30 at ¼ of best 100 stroke/free time or IM work. (Using tempo trainers)We repeat weeks. Weeks 1 and 3 are the same as are weeks 2 and 4 the same. It allows us to compare and see if we are making progress or need to slow down.
Questions:
Why do you allow your swimmers to slow down?
Why give them 3-5 seconds on 50s or allow them to not start counting “outs” before 5-6?"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Matt,
The % improvements for our Sr State meet ranged from .9 out to 3.87. If I filtered out the attendance then we were 1.27 to 3.87 and that’s just at that meet. I should have LC season % improvements done in a couple of days.
No recovery. An interesting observation with the 3 day is we see no “hang-over” they are capable of coming right back to work. In the traditional taper you seem to have that “look like crap” phase for a couple of days after a meet. I’m sticking with the 3 day.
We use the 3 day reduction for the majority of meets we attend. So the kids are very familiarly with the protocol and know its results.
I would experiment with the 3 day as many times as you can especially when you need to swim fast, record the data and compare to past performances. We use “are you faster now than at this point last season”. Try to compare apples to apples.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Matt,
I did a breakdown of attendance and numbers made on a post in the ‘Results” section. I think the date was sometime in late July. There is a significant difference in percent improvement when you factor out those outliers.
I agree that taller is better “longer boats are faster” just not sure “bigger is better” We’ll just agree to disagree
You are right there is going to be a huge shift in the paradigm for the dryland/strength issue. It’s probably the biggest hurdle to overcome especially in selling it to your kids because they come from so many different club programs and regardless of what the research may say they swam fast or fast enough to get recruited. I was lucky. They were remodeling our weight room and so we couldn’t lift for about a month and we just didn’t go back.
I enjoy the conversations. Makes me think.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Tucker,
There is some work from H.M.Toussaint & K. Vervoorn and a system they developed (MAD) that did have some promise. It’s built along the lines of a power rack. But not the same. I can’t find the original study (I have it just can’t seem to locate it).Kinda funny because the first attached abstract came from Rushall’s website.
The second attached review is from Dr. Mullen and doesn’t’ specifically talk about use of power racks. But what he does discuss can be said for them and also for anything that you tie to a swimmer.
With that said. I’m not total againist them (the old ones with plate weights because you can determine 1RM) The ones you fill with water are just about useless as all I’ve seen is coaches/swimmers fill them with an unknow amount of water and swim. Maybe it would be better to say HOW they are used is useless. If you know anything about development of power (F x D /T) then you know that opening the testosterone valve and pulling the thing to the other of the pool ain’t it. It is weight training and needs to be controlled and from what I’ve seen with programs is the lack of perimeters using it and lack of gathered data. i.e. wt. used, timed, distance traveled at race tempos and cycles. Cyles are critical, just as in wt. training shorten the length and you will actually lose power development. So if they shorten the stroke to achieve the max amount of weight. Then you may not be working on what you think. (Just about every study states the loss of d/S)
Years ago we used them VERY time consuming gathering data on 4 to 5 kids that may truly need them 3 times a week and with one coach it becomes a nightmare. I may still have the data but it could take awhile to find it.
my 2 cents
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Matt,
No filtering. We take the good with the bad.
On average there are 6 to 14 per event, does vary by year (right now I’m loaded with girl 100/200 Breaststrokers and boy 100/200 Freestylers, just the cycle?) they have to swim that event at least 4 times in a season. Minimum number of swimmers in an event is 4; have to have at least that to be included in the data. I don’t included events that have an “N” of only one or two as it’s not really valid like 400IM or mile. It would make the stats look better with improvement rates of 15% or better with an “N” of one. That’s why I posted no data on 400IMs/miles.
The total number would be 110ish. Figure a group turns over on average every 5 years with 22-24 in the group.
The reason I started tracking it was when we stopped lifting I want to see if it had any impact on performance and as you can see no real impact, actually better rates of improvement. My question would be “where’s the advantage to lifting?”
The 6’4” 200 beating the 6’4” 160 is a little simplistic saying the 40 lbs somehow makes him faster. I’ve watched the evolution of size from 1988 and yes guys are taller, a lot taller. To put a percentage on how many race under 200 is probably out there just accessing their race weight would be hard. I know Cesar Cielo races at under 200 lbs and was under 200 when he set the WR. Just last year he tried racing at 205 thinking that he need to be bigger and couldn’t get it going, dropped back to under 200 and is swimming well. Roland Schoeman also races under 200. (Personal communication with their coaches)
They are the pinnacle of the performance pyramid “cream rises to the top” with genetics, technical skill, ability to generate power in the water and a boat load of fast twitch muscle fiber. They train powerfully in the water i.e. explosive underwater work, 12.5s, 25s and 50s which is going to create a degree of muscle hypertrophy regardless whether they lift or not.
The issue of strength training in swimming has been well researched and the majority of the conclusions are that it’s not a determining factor for increasing speed. In a side note there has been research into strength and running i.e.sleds, wt. vests and the like and they found not much of a correlation to increasing running speed. My take away from the research was been if you want to run/swim faster, then run/swim faster.
just thoughts,
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Matt,
We’ll try this.
When we were lifting/dryland early 90s. I had Dr. Tudor Bompa one of the foremost authorities on periodization and weight training in the world helping me and he would even say that he wasn’t at all sure that wt trng helped with swimming. He would compare us to weight lifters and wrestlers being that in those sports you want to be as strong as you can get without moving up to the next weight class. The dilemma then became how do I create a bigger engine without changing the size of the boat? We went to max strength protocols very high % of 1RM and low reps, then low wt high reps and both just shot the crap out of their CNS and they swam slow in practice. We did get stronger and swam fast. But at what cost?I get college guys all the time training with me and all they talk about is gettting bigger. This past year had a kid come in and trained that couldn’t complete a workout without throwing up and couldn’t hold pace if his life depended on it, 3 years ago he was one of the top high school 50 freestylers in the country, went off to college, GOT BIG and swam like crap. Two top schools in 3 years and never went faster.
I showed him a picture of a greyhound and a bulldog and asked him which one did he want to be? Short story got him to quit lifting, he dropped 13 pounds, started swimming fast in practice and at one meet mid season went best times in the 50 and 100 3 times and made his US Open cuts. I guess he wanted to be the greyhound.
I’d take the fast 150 🙂
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Coach Kevin,
I hate this site for attachements. If you give me an email address I send the file to you.
Oldschoolc"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Coach Matt,
As a club coach for over 35 years and 130+ athletes that swam or are swimming in college. We use the Parametric System and USRPT. The problem of changing over I don’t think will be that hard on selling the idea. I have had over the years numerous college swimmers come for Christmas break and train, also during the summer months that were not previously my club swimmers and to a swimmer they find the workouts challenging and most of all race relevant. Every set has a purpose and a reason for being done.
With regards to the strength training it reads as not that you don’t believe the science; it has to do more with explaining why you no longer lift and fighting that battle in combination with a change over in training. I get the dilemma. It’s a “catch 22” as it may impact the results from your USRPT sets and then are you getting a fair assessment of the training due to the fact you have this supplemental work out there i.e. lifting/dryland. I think as long as you keep that in mind you’ll be OK and can fight that battle later. I remember when we stopped lifting/dryland that commotion lasted about a month then it was over. For us in the real world it’s not an easy call.
In regards to TT vs. race pace type training I’ve attached a chart showing in the 90s to 2000, our rates of improvement in the TT approach. We went 9-11 workouts per week, did the 55K to 60k on average, lifted, ran and dryland. The whole enchilada! You can see they improved but man where they tired, sore, sick and just downright nasty a good portion of the time. But again it did work. But at what cost? Since moving to more race pace specific systems you can see the improvement rates increased with the greater increases when we dropped all supplemental work .i.e. lifting, dryland, running etc.
I had a college coach ask me “what was the biggest difference I’ve seen between the two approaches?” My response was when I was doing the TT I really had no clue as to how they were going to perform. I thought I knew but not really. Now having used the more race-specific approaches and having data I can with a high degree of certainty know who is going to swim well and also who is going to struggle.
Just some thoughts.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Coach Tucker,
I presented a lot of this information about a month ago at the North & South Dakota Swim Coaches Conference in Fargo, ND. Well received by the majority of the coaches had about 50ish and other than that no real desire to publish any of this. I really do it more for my enjoyment/passion, for my staff and for the kids.The kids have a pace range for freestyle and one for their stroke that correlates with race performance for 25s, 50s, 75s and 100s. We are more Parametric in our progression, meaning we control the number offered each time they do the sets as we progress thru the season. We use the “rules” that’s what the kids’ call it with 2 in a row out or 3 total misses and out.
I’ve included a “snapshot” of our “n x 50 fr on :50/1:00” Excel spreadsheet I use to record and tally numbers. This sheet goes from A1 to BA1. So it’s a small “snapshot.
Stdev is standard deviation: this is VERY important. A lot of coaches may record the average for a set and try and use that to do race projections and miss a key component which is standard deviation it will tell you the technical reliability of the swim i.e. d/S, tempo, turn speeds and speeds underwater. The lower the Stdev the better technical work.
Avg- & Avg+: is their pace range with avg+ as the slowest speed they can go.
The columns with dates are where we record number offered (#O) and number made (#M) that’s the number they give me after the set. The spreadsheet keeps a running total of #O & #M throughout the season and what percentage they have made at the point in the season. You see we sometime increase numbers and at other time we’ll decrease numbers depending on how the athlete is doing. We’ll also make big jumps in numbers just to see if they will respond to the challenge. That usually falls flat on its face.
“Total offered” column is the total number offered to the swimmer for that season
“Total made” column is the running total made by the swimmer for that season“% total offered” column is the one we think has the greatest importance because it gives the best information on how they will perform. It shows mastery, high accumulation of potential and fitness. Caveat here is done at the correct speeds which is a whole other topic.
All workouts are written in WORD so it’s just a simple “cut and paste” from Excel spreadsheet to the workout of the numbers they made from last time. So they know that that need to improve on making more than last time.
The distance question is interesting. We are really good out to the 200s all strokes and 400/500 free with the work we do and have good correlations from race performance to practice and vice versa. I wish I had kids that wanted to do the 4IM and mile. At one time I had 3, but after the 3rd workout they had a come to Jesus meeting and decided to swim shorter events. They found out that swimming at race pace for the 4IM and mile every workout is not easy. They actually cried after reading the workout.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Results from our LC Championships July 3rd-6th
18 swimmers, 51 swims with 30 LTB for 58.82 % improvement
When breaking down the improvement rate by attendance using 70% or higher. I get a totally different picture. Any swimmer above 70% attendance had an improvement rate of 86.95% to LTB.
When breaking down the improvement rates using “numbers made at pace” with 35% or higher. We had an improvement rate of 85.71%. It also happened to be roughly the same kids with the higher attendance, go figure, more opportunity to achieve MASTERY and accumulate potential. Each swimmer was between 38.95% and 47.23% (highest was 64.23% on “50s on 1:00”) on each of the protocol sets 25s, 50s, 75s and 100s. If below those percentages they struggled to maintain any kind of consistence with regard to splits and performance i.e. might have one good swim, one bad swim and some just downright terrible swims all from the same individual. All you had to do was look at attendance and “numbers made” and had the answer.
The kids with the best attendance and “numbers made” are also the kids that swam the most consistent all summer staying within 2% of LTB or swam LTB at the 3 other meets we attended.
Funny how that works!We have one more meet with the top kids. Could get interesting based on race projections.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
