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ryanupper,
I would agree. I can also defend it to a certain extent. Our best two female 4IMers only swam that race 4 times each last year. All at invitational formats which allowed them to space out their primary events; distance free and 100/200 backstrokes a little better. In a dual meet format that’s a little rough at times, especially when they have relays added in.The agreement part. It is “mind-blowing” that coaches don’t figure out the weak stroke or don’t know how and then have no plan to address that other than swim n x 200/400IMs in practice thinking that pure volume will somehow magically drive them over the weakness.
Any IM recruit coming here we’ll present a detailed plan of how they swim the race, plus any stroke they swim (use the top 3 women at NCAAs as race model) It’s based on their average % of each split compared to total time (Aussies’ give me the idea). So, say we have a recruit in and they spend 30.44% of their 4IM swimming breaststroke we know that’s the weak stroke and we will structure their training with that in mind. The funny part is all I need is their time (love SWIMS database) and EXCEL will do the rest. One time and it gives me paces for all training sets we do. You should see the look on their face when I present this. The tricky part is making sure that you give them enough expose to each set to create improvement. That ain’t easy. But can be done.
The % is done for each stroke men and women as there are some differences. I’ve used this for about 15+ years now and just updated it last year. Truthfully, there was very little change in the race model. I probably could have gone another 15+ and been just fine.
Just food for thought or now you’re really confused 🙂
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Distance_USRPT,
I kinda wondered when you talked about Dr. Rushall’s USRPT (principles of physiology do hold true regardless) and then used sets like “n x 50 on 1:00”, that’s not USRPT. Some more background. I’m a practioner of the Parametric System. My mentors were Dr. Genadijus Sokolovas, I have his book that’s in Lithuanian and includes all the algorithms for using the system from why you do time trials to progression of numbers thru the cycle and Alex Nikitin, student of Dr. Sergei Gordon (developer of the Parametric System) and one of the smartest coaches I know. I’ve practiced this system for over 20 years and have keep data on training pace vs. race speeds for that length of time. Something the Russians didn’t even do. It has to correlate, training pace to race pace or you are wasting your time.I’d like to see what Richardson presented about the system. You can send it to: oldrecondoc@gmail.com
On to some of your thoughts. “n x 50 on 1:00” is really best suited for 200s either free or stroke. I’ve experimented with “n x 75 on 1:30” with sprinters that have to swim the 200 on the 800fr relay and it works very well. We also have some sprint kids that swim 200s of the stroke and they will hold better speed and skill/technique than doing 100s. SPRINTERS! the mind games you have to play 🙂
Not sure why you quit the “n x 50 on 2:00” You were on the right track with increasing speed reserve. I don’t care what distance you swim. Every swimmer needs speed. The Russians call it “the head and the tail” Just as an example I had a female swimmer go “16 x 50 on 2:00” this morning and she had a faster average and better standard deviation from a week ago when she went 14. 30.05/.55 to 29.94/.22.
“I can’t pinpoint” Paul Bergen once told me “if you change more than 10% of your program you have no clue what worked or didn’t work, seems you have the same problem. I’ve lived by that for 17+ years. I get it’s a slow process and the majority of coaches aren’t even going to come close to that. They go to a clinic and hear some “big” name coach present a couple of workouts and never mind that it’s one workout from September, one from December and then one from February, they go back and see if their kids can do them. No thought put into the sequence or why did they do it? And they want to be perceived as professionals? Sorry, got on my soap box there.
100s and altitude. We train at 1,200ft and we get an adjustment for going up. You didn’t get anything for going down 🙂 You have adapted to the O2 level at 4,500ft, so why are you adjusting the rest interval? 2:00 at 4,500ft and 2:00 at sea level. I think you are making this way to complicated.
I’ve attached a file about thoughts on speed for distance swimming from a track perspective.
Again, just somethings to think about.
? All that is not shared... is lost.“Rogue”
Just some background. I’m the Director of Performance for a DI program and write all the workouts for Sprint, Mid-Dist, Dist. groups and track all practice and meet performances data. We have 42 swimmers and 2 guys that had NCAA DI “A” cuts this past season.Just some thoughts, which can actually be backed up by data. Your n x 50 on :50″ will be very close to “n x 50 on 1:00” so while you can do them. I’d ask why? Just pick one. The “n x 100 on 2:00” freestyle should line up very close to back 1/2 200 pace (look at some of your race splits and see). The same goes for your work in stroke. “n x 100 on 2:00” has a .975 correlation from training pace to race speed.
Your sequencing of work looks good. Just remember that adaptation takes place not during the stimulus (training) but at rest (sleep). I’ve found that most swimmers place sleep at the end of their list of priorities which is a very bad mistake! I’ve ask them to plan 8 hours of sleep into their day and “plug” everything else in and the results where amazing.
Timing yourself issue. Get a Tempo Trainer (Swim outlet is about the cheapest). Use setting 1 and you can plug in your exact training pace. I’d add .30, just because you have to drop under when you hear the “beep” May have to play with this. We call this “beat the beep” or “btb” You have to get there before the beep goes off again. Example: pace time for your “n x 50fr on 2:00” is 27hi (I used 27.7), then plug in 28, includes .3, for drop under. You have to be at the other end before you hear the second beep. “Beat the beep”. Ok now how do you manage the rest interval? Easy. say you are doing a set of “n x 50 on 2:00” with a pace time of 28s, then you would use 2-3 beeps rest. Which get you very close to 2:00 interval. Again, play with it. I have over 10 international swimmers that train by themselves because they don’t want to do the 10 x 400 on 5:00 BS! at their clubs. I send workouts to them each day and they all have tempo trainers (TT) and train from 100s to 1500 using them.
Hints:
You want to shorten the rest? Then divide pace time in half. Your 28s become 14s and you will hear 3 beeps (start, 1/2 way and finish), have to be there before 3rd beep (finish) and rest 1 beep and go. You only got 14 seconds rest 🙂 Gets pretty damn hurtful. I can tell you this NOT one of my distance swimmers enjoy those sets. On pace with 1/2 the rest at 100/200 repeats. I think you get the idea 🙂100s: The tempo trainer can handle 1:04 as a straight swim. But I’ll use your 1:04, that’s 32 per 50 and 16 per 25 (roughly). You could do “n x 100s on 2:00” and set TT at 32 and know that you should be roughly at the 50 by the second beep (this helps with “pacing”) and from the feedback I get from the swimmers is it’s VERY stressful. By setting it at 1/2 or 1/4 you can play with the rest interval.
Disclaimer 🙂 I don’t get a dime for selling tempo trainers. Its that it’s a really cheap way for swimmers to train themselves and still get more accurate times.
Just an FYI. There is a new device called “Firebelly” and it will actually tell you your splits, cycles and tempo (It can actually do more). Yes, it talks to you while you’re swimming. I tried it with one of my distance (500/1000/1650) guys before he left for home and he was all excited about the possibilities next season. For a college kid training on his/her own it can be expensive $229, the app is free and will download to a phone and keep record of each workout. Again a disclaimer. I don’t receive a dime from these products. I just stretch them to their MAX capabilities and according to the software guys beyond.
Just food for thought
? All that is not shared... is lost.This is going to be a long reply,
With regards to the correlations. Yes we should expect it.
Some history. Over 17+ years ago correlations of training to race speeds didn’t exist. The old way was to test each protocol set which usually took 2-3 weeks to accumulate the data. Let’s just take 6 x 50 on 1:00, which was the standard number for the 50s on 1:00 and you run the test after (writing each time down) you had to figure the average and stdev (average + stdev became training pace at that time). Now you have to do that for every swimmer in the group for all 6 protocol sets and that’s just for freestyle add in another 6 for stroke. I did that for the first 6 years working in the system. I figured there had to be a better way, with only 1 coach and 30 swimmers, I was going to die doing this. So one day at the office I was looking at my split book from a meet we’d just gone to and I noticed the numbers looked familiar. So I checked them against the protocol sets and they lined up. So that’s where using split times + a little extra (avg of stdev) came from. Saved a boat load of time! It has evolved from there.
I started running the correlations more as a validator for myself than anything else. Making sure that what we did in practice was actually helping improve performance and nothing more. I just wasn’t going to work off anecdotal data. Our jobs are in time and distance all of which are recordable.
% offered made. Truthfully that’s there to show coaches that the swimmer is NOT going to make 80 to 90% of what you have written down and can still have great performances. It’s also a CYA against “Why didn’t I swim fast” The question I will ask is “well lets look at the numbers and you were at 23%”. I then usually ask “if you only did 23% of your school work would you expect an A?” that usually ends the conversation. It’s holding them accountable for their training. But the coach has to know the data. It is a two-way street.
The “shifts” and where do they roughly occur. I used lower level of improvement numbers for this and there are at least 2-3 “shift” for most of the sets. Longer sets just 2.
n x 25 on 1:00 between 6-8
n x 50 on 1:00 between 11-12
n x 50 on 2:00 between 6-7ish maybe 8
n x 100 between 6-7
n x 200 between 6-7
n x 400 between 4-5
? All that is not shared... is lost.Hey Kevin!
I’ll work backwards with your questions. Understanding the Parametric System. The Russians I learned from really don’t do much with it any more. The only place that has any information that’s current is the 3S System and Dr. Beliaev. Who I believe was a student of Dr Sergei Gordon in Russia. I’ll tell you right now in less you are willing to pay they ain’t sharing any information and I don’t blame them. I will go on their blog on occasion and see what the Dr. was written and because I know a little more background information I understand what he is talking about. The problem with the system is you have to be a record keeper or you can pay for 3S to keep the data. If you ask questions I will help you with what I know and have data for. If I don’t I’ll tell you.Now on to the WORD doc. questions:
1. It’s pretty simple. Are you getting done what needs to be done or are you a babysitter? Because practice is from 4-6, and god forbid they get out early. What’s the objective of workout? Occupy 2 hours or get something done.2. 4 x 25 (ATP-PC) and 20 x 25 (Zone III or MaxVO2) the same? Think about it. This is a speed that has a 0.979 correlation to first 50 of 100 and the swimmer can do 20 of them. Something has happened to how the body handles that effort. The swimmer moved from only being able to do 100 (4×25) to 500 (20×25) at first 50 of the 100 pace. “Endurance thru Speed”
3. 6 x 50 on 1:00 (Zone IV) to 16 x 50 on 1:00 (Zone III-II), again you are holding a speed that has a 0.966 correlation to 200 pace out to 800. “Endurance thru Speed”
4. 100s question 4 x 100 is roughly Zone III (500 pace) and you can now take that out to 1600-2000 (Zone IIish)total y/m. Again “Endurance thru Speed”.
Hope this helps
? All that is not shared... is lost.No problem. Drop on the 9 and push-off on 00. I’m not going to tell you every swimmer adheres to this. Sure some cheat. Maybe in their mind when they hear the time that they’re some how “killing” it. But the funny thing is it really doesn’t change their performance. “It all comes out in the wash” 🙂
For “n x 25 on 2:00” I split GS in half and that’s were they start. Correct and it’s not easy.
I think the reason for higher/lower correlations is numbers done at speed. We’ll see the majority of the kids that have made 60% of the number offered achieve better reliability of that speed. Makes sense. Also it will have to do with events they swim. While you maybe in the Mid-Dist. Group and doing 25s on 2:00, they may only swim a 50 maybe one time in a season and that might be on a relay.
I repeat protocol sets 3 to 4 times a week. Now they maybe be in a different order, one workout might be “n x 25 stk on 1:00” as the first set and then they would go into “n x 50 stk on 2:00” working front half 50 and then back half 50. The third set might be “n x 100 :15/:30 ri” working back half of 200 free. The next workout might be 50s on 2, then 100s and then 25s. The reason for moving them around is to give the kids an opportunity to improve their numbers made. Example: If 100s are always the last set there is some accumulation of fatigue from the first 2 sets and they never get a chance to really see what the can do. I have a 4 week cycle that I follow and it’s worked very well with the collegiate program.
Completion of numbers. I have built in to the spreadsheet based off the current group average what the number made should be. Is it perfect, hell no. But it does give the kids something to strive for other than just swimming back and forth and “hoping”. If I can get them to at least achieve the group average great!
Allowing more reps to failure. My gut tells me that you’d be closer to a traditional style of training and using volume instead of speed to some out even out the equation.
I really don’t have a “peak season”. Sure about 4-6 weeks out I would like to have the kids doing high numbers. But If I’ve been doing my job, I’ve been adjusting speeds all season long. I may have some at new speeds and can’t get to higher numbers done. That’s a whole other topic of when to adjust speeds.
I’ve attached a couple of files. 1. Mid-Dist. Group data from 15-16 and 16-17. 2. Is thoughts of Traditional Model vs. Endurance thru Speed.
Just food for thought
? All that is not shared... is lost.I’ve been tracking this for over 20+ years and truthfully, it’s not that hard. The tracking is really easy as long as you stay up with it and don’t get behind. I track about 14 standard sets and 42 swimmers. The majority of the correlations are .884 or higher, with most above .934. Kinda mind boggling that it’s that simple.
Here’s some data on our 50 freestyle kids. This is “n x 25 fr on 2:00”. They are done from a push and correlated to actual race performance. I get coaches all the time saying “well what about the start or what factor do you use for turns?” None! the data shows don’t really need to. Trying to keep it simple and yet correlate training to race performance.
I do have a couple of younger college coaches that send me data and they are tracking very close on their training to race speeds also.
? All that is not shared... is lost.I had to think about this. It is a life’s work and please respect it. But I decided to post.
? All that is not shared... is lost.I know of the studies and that’s part of why I’m ready to give in and have them lift. Just for nothing else to get them to shut up about lifting. Granted not the best reason for doing it. It’s so ingrained in them that no logic or data you produce has any impact. But it has become so tiresome trying to convince them they will actual swim faster and have better practices because they aren’t expending energy for something that has little to no impact on their performance (use the time for recovery). The interesting thing is the best kid we have has NEVER lifted NEVER and won 3 events and set 3 conference records and would have been seeded in the top 8 at NCAA’s in their event. (We weren’t eligible last year). He just says “I swim fast in practice”. What’s funny (not really) is that we had an 92.65% season best at conference and 84.73% LTB and some of these kids haven’t swum a best time in 2-3 years. I had a 500/1000 swimmer female swim faster every 500/1000, she swam last season. Which has over 10 times and she even went faster at the conference meet and still holds on to “I need to swim longer”. It just blows my mind.
I have the data of lifting vs.not lifting that spans over 20 years (nope, not a typo) 20 years. I did my teams’ rate of improvement when we did 9-11 workouts (traditional mind set back in the 80s) a week which including lifting that was a 10 year project. I then had an occasion to stop lifting because the college was redoing the wt. room and we never went back (figured it was as good a time as any to try). Plus I had a built in excuse :). I then charted the results of not lifting. Because we all know lifting helps with performance 🙂 and low and behold. We actually had greater rates of improvements when we did lift/run/dryland. We just swam fast in practice.
The paradigm of the incoming college athlete is just mind boggling. If I hear one more time I can’t swim that fast in practice or I only swim fast twice a year (maybe) or I need at least 3 weeks taper to be ready. It’s just crazy! Maybe I’m just getting to old to fight this battle.
Just an old guy with a stopwatch
? All that is not shared... is lost.All,
The load can be an increase. Its just in velocity as you would be changing the amount of effort needed to move the weight. i.e. the mass of swimmer through the water. Much like adding 2.5-5 lbs. It’s just from the velocity end. If you believe that the velocity is the key than that’s where the adjustment would need to be made. To make a progressive overload of the system.By adjusting the distance you would be follow the basic tenants of the Parametric System. 1. Velocity is set and you increase the distance swum at velocity. i.e. 6 x 25 building to 12 x 25. I guess you then have to figure out at what number of repeats that you can do in a row would determine or warrant an increase/adjustment in pace. That’s the tricky part. Because it’s not the same for every athlete and when you are responsible for the performance of 40 swimmers. Even adjustments of less than 1% get messy as hell.
The MxS question is correct. Near 90-95% and on occasion 100% attempts of 1RM with VERY long recovery time between lifts. Really good and basic book is Bompa’s “Periodization of Strength” on strength training. We have to stay away from muscle hypertrophy (the pump) as it will increase the size of the “boat” and based on experience not the “engine” I posed this very question to Dr. Tudor Bompa, about increasing mass in swimmers and his response was ” swimmers are like wt. lifters, in that you want to be the strongest lifter in your wt. class and not increase mass. Mass for the sake of mass is you still have to move it down the pool. F=MxA. I would chose #3 from above post as this is far more specific to swimming and mass would probably be developed through METABOLIC STRESS.. A question about energy utilization. Is the loss of velocity in events 1:00 or faster due to 1. energy delivery or 2. Force production?
Agree whole heartedly about “Russian/Battle ropes” If you had the idyllic situation and could set up a cycle of first developing Anatomical Adaptation or just general fitness phase/cycle (first 2-4 weeks of a season) then I can see maybe some purpose for their use. After that not sure what is going on other than work for work sake.
CSCSs’ You are exactly right. I have had to have sit down talks with the GAs that they are not about conditioning the kids, WTs.and dryland are supplemental to swimming and WILL be the first thing either stopped or reduced if the kids slow down in the water. If you look back at the original post “thoughts on WT” and they applied DC to what should be done with regards to weight training and selection of exercises for swimmers they wouldn’t fill 45 minutes.
Sorry about the fragmentation of the reply.
Enjoying the conversation
? All that is not shared... is lost.while I’d agree that it would be possible to adjust the distance. Dealing with that in a pool wouldn’t be that simple. 1. Workout management and 2. Having the capability to configure pool as needed. I could see it working LC or in track. In fact this is what we do with our sprinters in LC that swim the 50. We break the pool into 5m increments. We determine the point in the pool they can no longer hold the velocity and that’s where we start with sets like n x 30m or 35m on 2:00 with 20m/15m recovery swim. Once they are capable of holding a certain number at 30m we’ll try 35m or 40m in a sense reestablishing a new maximum. Push the numbers out again.
The LOAD can be also be the number of REPS at VELOCITY. In general lifting circles, weight lifters will usually increase the LOAD after they can handle the weight for 15 REPTITIONS. In swimming LOAD=VELOCITY, why not just make the times faster? Therefore increasing the LOAD. Then the swimmers would start back trying to again accomplish 15 reps before adjusting the load.
I think the key is establishing the maximum number they need to do before making the adjustment. If you have some understanding of how the body handles work with regards to energy delivery you can get pretty close to that number. I’d say within 2-3 repetitions.
? All that is not shared... is lost.Hallelujah! I have fought tooth and nail with the S&C Staff here. I’ve read and taken a number of the practice test on the “Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning” and having read “Fundamentals of Special Strength-Training in Sport”, “Weightlifting Technique and Training”, Supertraining” and “A System of Multi-Year Training in Weightlifting” and they look at me like I’m crazy. Starting next season I will have had 3 GA S&C coaches and most of their experiences coming from Cheer & Dance with little to no overhead athlete experience. Extremely frustrating!!!! Have they never heard of “Google Scholar” search?
Here! Here! on the Olympic lifts. I was at a conference many years ago of S&C coaches and Dr. Tudor Bompa was one of the keynote speakers. He said “if you are building your routines around Olympic lifts you might want to rethink that” I remember that close to 2/3 of the room got up and left. I could not believe it! One of the worlds foremost leading experts on lifting in sport and these guys get up and leave!
I was so fortunate to have developed a relationship with him. We had long discussions about WT in swimming and he would say “swimming gives S&C coaches fits because our feet don’t touch the ground. It’s kinda funny (not really)that over 15 years later we’re basically in the same place.
I apologize for the rambling. But this is about the only place that coaches really get into the “weeds” about swimming. I tried Slack and Ritter Sports Performance, the majority is anecdotally data and not worth the $29/month. The FB page “Swim Coaches Idea Exchange” waste of time. I could care less what you wear on deck or what awards you give at the banquet. Swimmingscience.net of all at least the good DR. is honest with regards to what works or maybe questionable.
Sorry for getting on the “soap box”
? All that is not shared... is lost.Just thinking here,
If you are off by 1 degree in the movement from the actual movement then strength doesn’t transfer. Don’t know many coaches that can measure that. Especially S&C coaches.I think a lot of coaches put to much faith in VL as a whole grail. That it is a type of metric that determines what? ( I’m understand the work Dr. Councilman with VL, please say we’re not using the same paradigm that existed in the 60s-70s). The angles are all wrong with regards to neuromuscular patterning and movement specificity. If anything done on land that would have may have the remotest chance of transference it would be a “slanted” Standing Long Jump (SLJ). There is some work out there that is looking into this.
The Peak Height Velocity (PHV) is correct. If I was a coach of age group kids and I only recorded one thing and just once a year it would be PHV. Because you can just about overlay that with performance and damn near get a perfect match. Where you start to earn your money is when it stops and volume doesn’t cure your problems of them slowing down.
MxS is more latent occurring 1 to 1-1/2 years post max. height. I think that most guys/girls really achieve the greatest strength gains due to metabolic stress. Actually doing the activity and at a very fast speed repeatedly.
I would argue that it is technique. It’s like track, those that can generate the most force into the ground and quicker are usually the fastest runners. I’ve thought about this now for a while and if we take track runners and turn them horizontal we have swimmers. Their feet become our hands and their hips become our shoulders and if ground force determines how fast a runner runs why doesn’t the same thing apply to swimming? I get we work in a different medium, water moves and the ground doesn’t. But it is about force generation and in swimming how do we generate the most force with out creating “cavitation” or let water slip by? Which I believe is the “feel” coaches talk about.
Does it really work for some and not others? It’s a simple study. Divide your training group in half and half lift and the other half pays attention to technical skills and swimming fast in practice and at the end of I’d say 3 season look at the results. i.e. % improvement from year to year, etc.
If you coach a club team in the U.S. good luck on suggesting you want to do this. I’d keep my resume updated.
Enjoy the conversation
? All that is not shared... is lost.Not sure I’d say totally worthless. But I think time could be better spent improving skill which would have a greater impact on improvement in performance. “It had to be more than just better technique and endurance”. I think that’s what we would like to think that it’s got to be something other than swimming fast and exploring how to get faster in the water i.e. starts, turns and underwater work. But I think it maybe be that simple. If you want to swim fast, then swim faster in all aspects. Especially in yards swimming.
I always ask S&C coaches this question with regards to transference. If strength training helps swimmers. Then why don’t weight lifters swim? Have yet to get an answer. The core strength issue. I’d ask How strong does your core need to be? Does a swimmer after doing a 2+ hour practice 9-11 days a week which heavily involves the core muscles really need to do another half-hour to forty-five minutes of core work 3x a week? Or a swimmer than can do 1000 crunches, better/faster than a swimmer that can only do 800? Maybe better at doing crunches/core work. But we coach swimming.
I will concede there maybe something to Power Racks and or Towers. If we vote I’d vote for Power Racks. But not in the speed development arena. But with regards to acceleration. You have to go to track studies using one of those weighted sleds to see the data. The data doesn’t show any real increase in speed from 10-20m, 20-30m or 30-60m. But it does show improvement in the 0-10m, which is acceleration. There is some data showing that swimmers that get to 15m first usually win.
Just thinking out loud
? All that is not shared... is lost.
