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  • in reply to: so simple it's… #2939
    doc
    Participant

    thoughts on your questions.

    1. We do not train specifically for the 1st 50. If you look at your race splits you will probably see that the 2nd 50 of the 100 and the first 50 of the 200 line up or are very close. So “n x 50 on 2:00” is a two-fer. You train back 1/2 100 and 1st 50 of 200 using the same set (simple). The 50s are from a push. Just trying to keep it simple.

    “n x 50 on 1:00” trains 2,3,4 of 200. Look at your race splits and figure avg speed and stdev, see what you come up with.

    2. Season totals are generated from daily recordings. If I posted the whole spreadsheet you couldn’t read it (print would be too small). Numbers offered in a single workout will depend on 1. where does it occur in the set i.e. 1st set would be a increase over last time offered. 2nd in the set is usually at the same number they did last time i.e. offered 10, would stay with 10. if 3rd in a set it would be a “give me what you got” try and make as many as you can. (accumulation of fatigue)

    3. Volume or number of repetitions offered is based on “shifts” in energy system being used. There are points you can use to know when it’s time to readjust speeds. If you wait until they can complete all 30 of a set. You will be waiting a very long time.or your speed is too slow. You reach a point of diminishing returns and it’s better to adjust pace once they can achieve X number.

    The interval is set based on what gives me the best correlation race to practice speeds. 25s on 1:00, would be 1st 50 of 100 (25 time x 2 = 1st 50). If some coach what’s do do them on the :50, so be it. As long as it correlates to some portion of the race then GREAT.

    Take your race splits and LOOK at THEM (let them talk to you). Then figure out sets that mimic each part of the race and do them over and over again.

    Also works for IMers. It’s just structured a little different. But still pretty simple.

    My thoughts,

    Doc


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    in reply to: so simple it's… #2935
    doc
    Participant

    Rick,
    We have them “drop” on the “9” or as close as possible to leaving on the “00”. Sure some cheat a little but we’re close and overall do a good job with it.

    The interval question is interesting in that I think what coaches need to do is find the interval that allows the swimmer to swim at RP for their event. It may mean that 25s on 1:00, or :50 and maybe even the :40 as long as it lines up with RP. I have used 1:30 for 50s and really saw no difference in splits from using 2:00. That’s up to you. What lines up the best and go with it.

    I think the volume issue is a little over done. The real number is “how many reps at pace did they achieve?” and that number I think would shock some coaches in that it’s really not that high. I’ve attached a “snapshot” from our Mid Dist. grp. of n x 50s on 1:00 the far right columns have Total Offered and Total Made and you can see that most are in the 60-70% with grp. avg. at 64.69. The other “snapshot” has for stroke and again you can see numbers aren’t really that high with a group avg. 67.50. (neither sheet is completely done just put some examples in).

    More food for thought.

    Fast swimming at your district meet!

    Doc


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    in reply to: Your Thoughts #2927
    doc
    Participant

    KngLenny,
    I’ve always used the first set as looking for improvement in numbers over last time done. So Monday they max out and then on Wednesday or Thursday again max out. I’d adjust pace.

    one side note: be careful with the amount of adjustment with 4 weeks to go if it’s too great you run the risk of a big drop in numbers and without enough time to get them back up (make a shift) at the new speed. My last adjustment to pace was last week and they are flying in practice.

    Our conference is also coming up in 5 weeks and I plan on using the same 3 day unload as we did for mid-season meet. 10 team records, 13 pool records and 90% plus season/lifetime bests.

    Just some thoughts

    Doc


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    in reply to: Full Rest for mid season meet #2923
    doc
    Participant

    swimbird,
    Sure you can. Problem with this stuff is it’s “trial and error”, keep good notes for the next time.

    We did a 3 day unload prior to our mid-season meet and swam very well with 13 pool records, 10 team records and 92.8 S/LTB. We are getting ready to travel again and will do a one day unload (30%) with an extended meet warm-up the day before the meet. We will be 3 weeks out of conference meet.

    The nice thing about whatever you want to call it is you can come right back to previous workloads. When I was a more traditional coach that had 2 week “tapers” and then after the meet another 3 to 4 days of the “taper blues” you had gone 3 to 3 1/2 weeks before you could get back up and going again.

    After our mid-season meet the very next day after we got back we were back to work.

    I would say go for it! This is how we learn.

    Let us know how it goes.

    Doc


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    in reply to: Should you swim every practice till third failure? #2921
    doc
    Participant

    dmuecke,
    if you do a search of “doc” or “oldschool” you will see the rest interval question has been discussed on numerous posts.


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    in reply to: Should you swim every practice till third failure? #2919
    doc
    Participant

    Albrock,
    If you haven’t done 50s with them before at 100 or even 200 pace I’m not sure I’d post 20 x 50 🙂 Start with say 8-12 x 50 and see what happens, if they make all of them then great and next time you know to increase the number. If I’d started the season off with 20 x 50 everyone would have just shut down. We are now able to do 20 x 50 on 1:00 at 200 pace and they make between 12-20 (just did the set tonight). Then come back with the 25s same stroke as the 50s. We call this long to short (as distance of repeat, 50 to 25). then maybe the next time you switch it and go 25s to 50s, this allows them to swim the first set fresh without an accumulation of fatigue (it does happen, it’s energy expended)
    I think that after 3 sets in a workout we’re pushing it. The last set is rough and I deal with kids that are finally starting to understand the system.

    Just to give you an idea. Here are the 3 sets we did tonight and results. We would consider this short to long.

    14 x 25 free on 1:00 @ 100 pace range made 10-14 did an excellent job with underwater work and quality of movement.
    20 x 50 free on 1:00 @ 200 pace range made 12-20 again did and excellent job with turn speeds, underwater work and quality of movement.
    8 x 100 free on 2:00 @ 200 pace back 1/2 100 range 0-8. this was rough and they really did a good job with it. You could start seeing the breakdown and probably pushed it 2 100s to far.

    This is a dance of sorts. You have to monitor the athletes all the time and make adjustments accordingly.
    There are good days, there are great days and then there are days you wonder why you even had practice.

    just food for thought,

    Doc


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    in reply to: Should you swim every practice till third failure? #2914
    doc
    Participant

    Albrock,
    First welcome. I’ll give it a shot. First 30 x 25 is just a number and it’s definitely not a MUST. It’s based off really nothing more than an idea of this is what it takes and even Dr. Rushall has stated that in some of the bulletins. It’s roughly based off it takes 5 to 6 times race distance to create adaptation. In the old days coaches believed that if you could hold double the race distance you were “good to go” i.e. 30 x 100 short rest at 1500m pace, the athlete was ready. If you understand energy zones then it will make more sense i.e 4-6 x 25 on :40/:50/1:00 (Zone V), is not the same energy system as 30 x 25 on :40/:50/1:00 (Zone III ish), if you are using the same speed in both sets. If you move from 6 to 30 at 100 speed you are shifting the speed WAY to the right. It’s costing you less energy to swim at the same speed. Hope this makes sense.

    Now the question is, “Do you need to do 30 x 25 in order to swim a good/great 100?” I say no. you need to make at least one shift to the right and if you get two shifts then good on you! One shift would be somewhere around 12-16, with at least 8 in a row without a miss and do it twice, then I think the athlete would have shown mastery of the speed. The athlete can do 200 at 100 speed they had better be faster for a 100.

    What I have found working with club and college swimmers is always seeing the maximum number just screws them into the ground (especially college). They think that they have to complete all x of whatever is presented and they just can’t handle it mentally. Control the progression. Start with 8-10 x whatever distance and see how they do. Then move to 12-14 and again see happens and maybe you get BOLD and try 16-20 and again see what happens. If they can complete in the 60-70% range they are doing really well and at 100% you need to adjust times.

    Hope this gives you some ideas.

    Your English is much better than my Latvian. I can read/word recognize Lithuanian OK and speak very little Russian. Damn alphabet just screws me into the ground 🙂

    Doc


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    in reply to: Your Thoughts #2912
    doc
    Participant

    KngLenny,
    Some thoughts on question 1. Years ago I thought I would be clever and start with goal speed and figured they had plenty of time to make the adaptation. They did swim fast. But man the numbers never really got very high (less than one shift) and didn’t do that again.

    I’m guessing that the shift to best times was probably too great and some may need a little more time in the pot to cook so to speak. I started with the times from their conference meet last year and broken them down into the appropriate training sets. Then I created 2 columns one was an increases to pace time of 1% slower and the other was 3% slower. They like to have a little wiggle room and it factors in stdev. I started the groups at the 3% of best time or split and with a few exception all are 1-2% faster than their conference meet performances.

    I would tweek them a little say .5% to .8% and see what happens.

    Remember I’d never seen the majority of these swimmers before September.

    Thoughts on question 2. I have 3 female swimmers in the same boat. If you looked at their trng paces and race splits you’d think they were a completely different swimmer. It’s the tech suit for whatever reason when they swim in that suit they go really fast! which is not a bad thing. But hell on the coach trying to figure out where the athlete is in trng. About drove me crazy trying to figure this out. Example of one girl: n x 50 stk on 2:00 trng pace 34.49 and race split 32.91 and n x 25 on 2:00 projected 26.04 with a race split of 24.30.

    I’m just watching and seeing what happens. Never experienced this at the club level.

    Question 3. I try and get in at least 3 x per week both free and stroke. I will adjust the numbers depending on where I want it to fall in the workout. Example: first set we are looking for improvement over last time offered (no clutter of sets before). If it’s a second set then it is more maintenance just make what you did last time and if it’s the 3rd set just give we what you got. We will play lets’ make a deal on 3rd sets. Example I’ll pick a swimmer (I call it “spotlight swimmer” and say if you make x number in a row then the group gets to stop. It might be a set of 12 x 50 on 1:00, and if the swimmer makes 6 in a row the group is done. (hint pick a swimmer that hasn’t ever made 6 in a row) they will light the pool up! We just did it tonight the 3rd set was 8 x 50 stk on 2:00 with a girl that hadn’t made 4 in a row ever and she went 27.69, 28.18, 28.34 and 28.84 with a pace time of 30.02. The group went crazy and it’s truly their brain!

    Hopefully this gives you some things to think about.

    Please tell me you are not doing the calculations from SCM to SCY by hand. EXCEL can easily handle this for your whole team.

    Doc


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    in reply to: Sections/State Results #2898
    doc
    Participant

    Idea for technical aspect. I’m going to look at the past results of the swimmers from say 2-3 years ago in their 200s and figure the average and standard deviation of 50s 2, 3, & 4 and see it there is a significant deference between then and now. The standard deviation should give me their technical reliability with the lower the better.

    I do have access to their race analysis from past years and video. Just have to do some searching.

    May be just running down a rabbit hole. But done that before.

    Just thinking out loud,

    Doc


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    in reply to: Sections/State Results #2897
    doc
    Participant

    Ryan,
    With regards to a control group. It would be very interesting and had thought about it at the club (better to do it when you are the boss). But can you imagine the uproar. “Ok guys we are going to split the team into 2 groups and one group is going to do this type of training and the other this type” Holy hell would break out. You’d have “How come they get to do this and we have to do that?” My hat is off to the coach that can pull that off and keep his/her job!

    The best I can come up with is I took the system from a club program and dropped into a college program only knowing about 7 of the 48 swimmers and had just about the same results. It will get better as the kids start understanding the system. They are constantly presented with the training information on their FB page. There is no escape!!

    We video tape EVERY race at every meet and use race analyzer software on each race and this gets posted on their FB or YouTube for their review. We will even do more critical analyzes using Kinovea software (freeware on the web and is plenty for a coach with limited resources i.e. money) this is turned around in about an hour. So, if it’s a prelim/finals meet the kids and coaches have the data from prelims before they go to finals. We are VERY technique driven and believe that’s where the greatest improvements will occur. If you have heard of Milt Nelms (swimmer whisper) or Bill Boomer, we are very driven in that paradigm of posture- line – balance. We even allow swimmers to rest in a set if they feel that they cannot maintain the quality of movement. They maybe maintaining the time, but something tells them that they need to rest and regain balance. We want perfect race execution!

    We have a value system of: turn speeds, underwater work and surface swimming skills and every set reinforces that in practice. If you think about it that’s how the race degrades or decays. Turns speeds slow, the CO2 light starts flashing and there goes underwater work and finally surface swimming quality starts to go right out the door.

    I am truly blessed. I have a Head Coach that had the vision to hire me and I have assistant coaches that are the most tireless workers any coach could ask for.

    I agree wholeheartedly that coaches and swimmers are much more civil to each other on this site than others.

    Doc


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    in reply to: Sections/State Results #2894
    doc
    Participant

    raynupper,
    The problem is as a club, college or high school coach an “n” of 1 over 2 to 3 years is rather painful and tedious. We deal with 18, 24 and as many as 40 plus swimmers that have to improve or people could lose their jobs. As a masters swimmer if it doesn’t work “oh well, on to something else” You have no skin in the game. If you are honest with yourself you will agree. It has to work with a large number!

    I believe that most of the guys on this site coach more than one swimmer and are looking for things that are simple, direct and with a minimal amount of record keeping in regards to improvement in the performance of their swimmers.

    I don’t want to be mean about this and in no way was trying to be insulting. But you have to understand that guys are taking a huge leap of faith and want/need to know that this works from coaches that have seen results regardless of the number of swimmers they coach, whether it be club or college.

    I’ve said this before. I truly enjoy the dialogue on this site whether we agree or disagree.

    Doc


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    in reply to: Sections/State Results #2891
    doc
    Participant

    Billratio,
    Think K.I.S.S. The PDF files I attached are all from a PUSH on whatever set they are doing. You really don’t need to add or subtract anything. It takes care of it’s self. Example “n x 25 on 2:00” will come very close to 50 performance and it’s done from a PUSH.

    I get it all the time. “Did you factor in the start or what about the turn?” Again, every set we do is from a PUSH and the race splits line up with what they are doing in practice. (See the PDF files). You will drive yourself crazy and become so fragmented you will not know if you are on foot or horse back. I guess coaches just have to believe that it’s some how more complicated and have to invent 30 different ways to do one simple thing.

    Again GOOD JOB and hope you and your family have a nice Thanksgiving!

    Doc/oldschool


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    in reply to: Sections/State Results #2890
    doc
    Participant

    Gary P,
    While I agree with you. I offer this. If I’m planning the swimmers training paces off their goal sheets that they have turned in at the beginning of the season and they are a reasonable rate of improvement, in the 1.5 to 3% range, then the expectations and motivation should be very close to the same i.e. coach and swimmer on the same page. If a coach just some how determines a time which may be unrealistic say an improvement of 5-7% in the 100 free for a SR type swimmer probably not going to happen and there will be upset people, probably both swimmer and coach. The ” But you said, I was going to go …”

    Coaching is a partnership. The athlete needs us for our expertise in a sport and we need the athlete to execute the plan and both have to be on the same page. This reduces the likelihood of unrealistic expectations and lack of motivation.

    I mentor a number of young coaches here and I tell them that the hardest part of the system is the education of the system. You have to know this front to back and in reverse. They need to be able to answer questions and NOT take it as the swimmer is challenging them. You just calmly explain the reason why they need to do this. What each set does and how it relates to their race.

    I enjoy the exchange. Makes me think.

    Doc


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    in reply to: Sections/State Results #2883
    doc
    Participant

    Billratio,
    Nice job my man!

    Couple of things. As you know I don’t coach club any more (retired) and am the Director of Performance for a Div I program. I took the system that I used at the club and just transferred it to a college program (48 swimmers). Below are the results of our mid season shave meet. The meet had 2 Big 10 teams and we came in second on the men’s and third on the women’s.

    10 Team records
    10 Pool records (2 of which were held by an Olympian)
    19 NCAA “B” cuts
    The men won 20 out of 25 events.
    92.87% LTB as a team and only 3 swims were not season best

    The best they had done in 7 years!

    On your 200s look at their average of 2, 3, & 4 and see if that’s closer to “n x 50 on 1:00”

    Your 500 swimmers. Think about it you, tried to train her for 50s to 500, that’s like trying to train Bolt to run the mile and 100, that’s not going to happen. I’ll make a guess here and say her turn speeds slowed. Because the time you projected for her and what she went is really very small over a 500. We time from the last hand hit to foot touch and it needs to be at or under 1.00. (cheap speed)

    I’ve attached some files from our Sprint group showing race splits to training for you to review.

    This will probably not go over well on this website. But I will say it any way. Be very careful of input from master’s swimmers. An “n” of one is not very reliable.

    Again great job!

    Doc/oldschool


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    in reply to: Tech suits #2863
    doc
    Participant

    Billratio,
    I agree. They some how think it is far better to have these huge time drops at the final meet of the season (hopefully) then let their kids swim fast all season. The average rate of improvement over a season is 1.5-3% and for the life of me I don’t understand why dropping .8% in a meet and then the next meet drop .4%, etc. until you get to the final meet and the drop maybe another 1% or whatever that equals a 1.5 to 3% improvement for the season, either way it’s still 1.5-3%. Who cares how you get there.

    I discussed this with the kids and asked “would it be better to get paid (drop a little time) along the way or hope we win the lottery at the end” and each said they would rather get paid along the way.

    Just frustrated

    oldschool


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Viewing 15 posts - 106 through 120 (of 134 total)