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  • #2407
    AvatarQuestionnow
    Participant

    Hey All! (Gary P, Oldschool?)

    Today I had kind of a ”mind f@@k”… hopefully I only burst a bubble and someone will set me straight…

    If I am doing a 20 x 50m on a 1’51 pace therefore 27.75 on 48 seconds
    this would mean 13.88 for a 30 x 25m correct?

    but I am able to finish roughly 10-12 reps of a 20 x 25m based on 49.80m pace for a 100m (12.45 pace on 29 seconds)

    Whats are the advantages / physiological benefits etc etc of doing the 50m and 25m on 200m pace?
    Wont I eventually be able to finish (couple months maybe but whatever) a 20 x 25m at below 12.45 pace? and eventually create an around time of 1’39.60+ time (49.80 + 49.80 pace for a 200 done by working the 100?)
    Or is the body not just able to do that? Therefore it needs to calm down and hold that 27.75 pace?)

    Thanks for the precious help… maybe I’ll just discover Im retarded… 🙂

    #2411
    billratiobillratio
    Participant

    I’ll do the best I can to help.

    I don’t think it is enough to just cut the time in half when going from 50s at 200 pace to 25s at 200 pace. The turns add time and that is taking another turn out of the equation. You’d need to at least cut it down to 13.3 and then with a 1+ second turn that would be around your 200 pace. I also think the numbers need to be crazy high if you are going to be using them for a 200.

    My girls have such an easy time holding 200 pace on 25s that we primarily use them after a 200 set with 50s. Just as a way to get more yards at pace done.

    I think 13.3 second 25s would be beneficial for training for a 1:51 but those aren’t the sets that are going to be predictive. I also think just cutting the 200 time into 4 is not enough because the turns take time. Oldschool says the 50s should be at the pace of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th 50 of the 200. I’ve found that to be accurate in my limited 200 results.

    I still think 27.75 will be okay because the first 50 will cut off some of the turn time. Just don’t expect to hold 27.75 the whole race. So if you can go out in 24.75 and then hold 28.75s you will be at your 1:51.0.

    "Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."

    #2412
    billratiobillratio
    Participant

    I think the advantage of adding the 25s is that it enables you to get a few more yards when you can’t make 50s anymore. Becca Mann mentioned that her and Michael Andrew did something like this when she was training with him. They did 50s until they couldn’t and then switched to 25s.

    "Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."

    #2414
    AvatarQuestionnow
    Participant

    Thanks for the info!

    My second question would be this…

    I have a hard time getting it into my head to train for that 13.3 when I can hold 12.3, 12.4s for about 10-12 reps (for the 100)… I feel like Id be wasting my time doing sets with a 13.3 pace (for the 200)… am I an idiot of this sense of ”wasted time” needs to be done too??

    #2415
    AvatarAmsepamse
    Participant

    Training for 200 doing 25s you would want to be in the range 30-40 made. 10-12 isn’t many enough to be conditioning for 200m/y. That is more in the range for being conditioning for 100 m/y. For 200 I would think that 50s or 75s are more appropriate.

    #2416
    AvatarQuestionnow
    Participant

    True… Im just going with the notion.. Im keeping 12s for 10-12… what will happen when I can reach 25-30 at 12s…
    wouldnt I have been wasting time doing 28s for the 200?

    #2417
    Gary PGary P
    Participant

    As others have mentioned, when going from 50’s to 25’s you have to account for the turn. If you’re doing 50’s at 27.8, that’s not two 25’s at 13.9, it’s two 25’s at ~13.3 plus a turn at ~1.2.

    I’ve never tried 25’s at 200 pace because the opening 25 of a 50 at 200 pace always felt relatively easy; it only really started to hurt after the flip turn. Also, I think you’d have to do so many to be relevant to a 200 race (50-60 offered, needing to make at least 40) that it didn’t seem very time efficient.

    I’ve actually made the most progress on my 200 race time when I was doing mostly 75’s in workouts. Here’s where you’re “wasted time” thought comes in. A set of 60 25’s and a set of 20 75’s is the same distance, but you can get the 75’s done in 8-10 minutes less time. And frankly, you’re likely to fail out of the 75’s sooner so you’ll achieve the desired physiological training effect much sooner. I think you spend an awful lot of the time early in the set of 25’s at 200 pace cruising, waiting for the set to actually start feel demanding. The only upside is you’ll get more reps and perhaps develop more “muscle memory,” but I’m not sure that muscle memory developed in a low-demand situation really transfers all that well to a high-fatigued state.

    #2419
    AvatarQuestionnow
    Participant

    I totally get what you mean and everything.. but what I have a hard time with is understanding why I should concentrate on pacing a 1’51 200m time when I can kinda take (obviously for less reps) a 1’48-1’47 200m pace. repetition. Shouldn’t I jump to that right away and do less reps… or is it better to condition myself for a 1’51 pace and take it from there? Im just wondering what the word PACE really means… should I just call it repeating as-fast-as-possible swimming for whatever the distance? And improve each time I do it.
    Hopefully my question makes sense….

    #2420
    Gary PGary P
    Participant

    There’s a pretty big gap between 1:51 and 1:47 or even 1:48. I think it’s OK to chase a “goal” pace, but you need to be careful not to be so aggressive with your goal that you’re not achieving a critical amount of distance before failing the set. How far is the “critical distance?” I don’t have any evidence to back it up, but to me it seems like it’s at least 600m when training for a 200m race.

    BTW, what does your coach say? Because if you can do a 100 METERS in less than 50 seconds and are in the low 1:50’s for a 200 meter free, I can’t believe you aren’t working with a professional coach already. That’s out there at the pointy end of the performance curve; a place where improvements come in tiny slivers, not chunks or even bites. Expecting to extend your current 100 speed to the 200 in a few months seems overly optimistic given how much potential you seem to already be tapping. I mean 1:47.9 in the 200 meter (long course) freestyle was the cut for the semi-finals in the last Olympics. If you don’t have a coach, get one now because you’re on the threshold of being a world class athlete.

    #2421
    AvatarQuestionnow
    Participant

    I kept on writing I this and I that… but Im the coach… and the references are to my athlete.
    I just switched to USRPT… I used to do Salo type training for the past couple years… and this USRPT turned me on even more….
    But I sometimes wonder about the loss of time doing 27s for the 200 when 24 and 25s can be done for the 100 (therefore eventually getting to 200s) or is the amount of reps right right right now the most important thing….

    #2422
    AvatarAnonymous
    Inactive

    I think the idea of switching to 25s after failing at 50s is valid. The 25s at 200 pace might seem easy relative to 25s at 100 pace but 2 things -1. Make an adjustment for turns and 2. Make the interval lower so that it is challenging.

    #2427
    AvatarQuestionnow
    Participant

    Will write down how it goes down at Trials in 2 weeks

    Im thinking some good results should occur!

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