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  • #2933
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    criminal!

    Results from conference meet.

    97.89% season best times
    88.78% lifetime best (12 kids hadn’t swum a best time in 3 years!)
    2 NCAA “A” cuts (first in school history)
    2 Relays in NCAA top 20
    LCM time trials on Sunday had a swimmer achieve Olympic Trial cut and 2 swim within in 1% of lifetime best.

    Example: 200 fly 1:42.87 final time (1st place, conference and meet record)

    N x 50 on 2:00, 23.45 training pace (race split 23.05)
    N x 50 on 1:00, 26.66 training pace (race split is average of 2, 3, & 4, 26.61 with a stdev of .23) I would project his splits from 26.58 (avg-stdev) to 26.84 (avg+stdev).

    This is just one example. I could post the other 40+ swimmers that line up with the example. But I’m not.

    No weights, no equipment, no drills and no doubles. We have two focuses 1. Swim at race pace. 2. Focus on the skills you will need to maintain race pace i.e. underwater work, turn speed, finishes and surface swimming skills.

    Once you understand how the “numbers talk to you” it is really easy. Everything else is #$

    Food for thought

    Doc

    ps. If you can’t provide training data to race data, I’m not interested in your thoughts. If this pisses you off then so be it. “Anecdotes are not data”


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in 🙂

    #2934
    AvatarRick
    Participant

    Quick question: When do you let them go (for us it’s when you let them go up and push off) for each set? I’ve followed the advice of Rushall on 2 seconds before (you can go up and push off on the :58 if you are leaving on the :00), but I’m starting to think sending them off on the :59 would more closely correlate to actual times. Won’t know for certain until this weekend when we have districts and all swimmers get to rest going into it.

    This season we’ve done our n x 25’s on :60 and our n x 50’s on :90. Big difference from last year’s rule of never more than 20 seconds rest between reps. Really would like to play with the rest intervals to see if it captures their front and back splits more accurately, but I was afraid we couldn’t get enough reps in to really get all of the training effect for each of these sets (only 4-6 hours of pool time per week). We’ll see. I’ve had a good group of kids who have been pretty faithful in adhering to the “rules,” and I’m hoping to get some more reliable data than just a couple of swimmers.

    Congrats on the results… that’s fast!

    Rick

    #2935
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Rick,
    We have them “drop” on the “9” or as close as possible to leaving on the “00”. Sure some cheat a little but we’re close and overall do a good job with it.

    The interval question is interesting in that I think what coaches need to do is find the interval that allows the swimmer to swim at RP for their event. It may mean that 25s on 1:00, or :50 and maybe even the :40 as long as it lines up with RP. I have used 1:30 for 50s and really saw no difference in splits from using 2:00. That’s up to you. What lines up the best and go with it.

    I think the volume issue is a little over done. The real number is “how many reps at pace did they achieve?” and that number I think would shock some coaches in that it’s really not that high. I’ve attached a “snapshot” from our Mid Dist. grp. of n x 50s on 1:00 the far right columns have Total Offered and Total Made and you can see that most are in the 60-70% with grp. avg. at 64.69. The other “snapshot” has for stroke and again you can see numbers aren’t really that high with a group avg. 67.50. (neither sheet is completely done just put some examples in).

    More food for thought.

    Fast swimming at your district meet!

    Doc


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in 🙂

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    #2938
    Gary PGary P
    Participant

    Example: 200 fly 1:42.87 final time (1st place, conference and meet record)

    N x 50 on 2:00, 23.45 training pace (race split 23.05)
    N x 50 on 1:00, 26.66 training pace (race split is average of 2, 3, & 4, 26.61 with a stdev of .23) I would project his splits from 26.58 (avg-stdev) to 26.84 (avg+stdev).

    I have a few questions.

    Are you specifically training the opening 50 of a 200 different from 50’s # 2/3/4? If so, are those 50’s on 2 minutes off the blocks?

    Your chart shows offered/made for the season, but how many repetitions are you offering in a single set?

    When you say

    I think what coaches need to do is find the interval that allows the swimmer to swim at RP for their event. It may mean that 25s on 1:00, or :50 and maybe even the :40 as long as it lines up with RP.

    I assume there has to be some sort of volume objective there. I can swim 25’s at 100 race pace on :40 for a while before I fatigue and fail. I can do it for a longer while at :50, and I assume (maybe not) even longer on 1:00. Or are you experimenting with interval and settling on the one that seems to be at the inflection point where more rest doesn’t really result in more successful completions?

    #2939
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    thoughts on your questions.

    1. We do not train specifically for the 1st 50. If you look at your race splits you will probably see that the 2nd 50 of the 100 and the first 50 of the 200 line up or are very close. So “n x 50 on 2:00” is a two-fer. You train back 1/2 100 and 1st 50 of 200 using the same set (simple). The 50s are from a push. Just trying to keep it simple.

    “n x 50 on 1:00” trains 2,3,4 of 200. Look at your race splits and figure avg speed and stdev, see what you come up with.

    2. Season totals are generated from daily recordings. If I posted the whole spreadsheet you couldn’t read it (print would be too small). Numbers offered in a single workout will depend on 1. where does it occur in the set i.e. 1st set would be a increase over last time offered. 2nd in the set is usually at the same number they did last time i.e. offered 10, would stay with 10. if 3rd in a set it would be a “give me what you got” try and make as many as you can. (accumulation of fatigue)

    3. Volume or number of repetitions offered is based on “shifts” in energy system being used. There are points you can use to know when it’s time to readjust speeds. If you wait until they can complete all 30 of a set. You will be waiting a very long time.or your speed is too slow. You reach a point of diminishing returns and it’s better to adjust pace once they can achieve X number.

    The interval is set based on what gives me the best correlation race to practice speeds. 25s on 1:00, would be 1st 50 of 100 (25 time x 2 = 1st 50). If some coach what’s do do them on the :50, so be it. As long as it correlates to some portion of the race then GREAT.

    Take your race splits and LOOK at THEM (let them talk to you). Then figure out sets that mimic each part of the race and do them over and over again.

    Also works for IMers. It’s just structured a little different. But still pretty simple.

    My thoughts,

    Doc


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in 🙂

    #2940
    AvatarRick
    Participant

    “3. Volume or number of repetitions offered is based on “shifts” in energy system being used. There are points you can use to know when it’s time to readjust speeds. If you wait until they can complete all 30 of a set. You will be waiting a very long time.or your speed is too slow. You reach a point of diminishing returns and it’s better to adjust pace once they can achieve X number.”

    Arrgh! This was the one issue I have been dealing with all season. Gut told me to adjust time downward, but I didn’t trust myself on this. live and learn. Think I was a little gun shy because I made some adjustments too close to championships last season and felt they didn’t have time to adapt. Will know after this weekend.

    #2941
    AvatarTheRamblingLane
    Participant

    So, I have 3 swimmers I’ve used this program with for over a year. It works remarkably well as you obviously know. 😉
    Swimmer girl 17yo has achieved best times at every meet she has swum. Swimmer boy 14yo has achieved best times at every meet he has swum.
    Swimmer girl 12yo has achieved best times at every meet she has swum.
    I have done this program somewhat purely with the 12 yo. She loves it so much better than the “traditional” approach. The other two have high school swimming added into the mix but the high school implements usrpt vs traditional sets probably 70/30.
    All three are top 16 swimmers in the state and one is an event champion.
    17 yo does circuit type dryland a couple times per week and abs almost everyday. 14 yo did weight lifting in high school swimming for the first time and probably heftier than what I would have them do.
    I have a question for Doc…the head club coaches are under the impression that their swimmers need more rest (most of the swimmers are girls and about 25% are 11-12 and the rest are 13 and over). Since we started, I have ALWAYS done for My three swimmers a 75%, 50%, 25%, 25% unload, then meet weekend. Only for big championship meets. We do 3 usrpt sets and decrease the rep amount by these percentages. All extra time is devoted to technique, starts, turns, breakouts, and underwaters.
    This has worked well. We adjust if we need to according to how many meets are within a certain timeframe. So far so good.
    The problem is that all other swimmers are not performing like mine which makes the coaches believe they need more rest. But they began resting the others 10 days out from the meet dropping down to two sets per day at a cap on reps (like do no more than 20, 15, 10, etc) when they were using usrpt purely with no doubles or minimal weights (which had been abandoned 3 weeks before anyway). I kept mine on our typical 3-5 day unload. My swimmers did very well. The other swimmers did well on their 200s (but I suspect they would have done better had they not rested so long). Their 100s were not as stellar although they did have minor .5-1.0 sec drops in some and right on best times for others. But they weren’t what coaches “predicted”. One of my girls dropped 2.7 sec in her 100 from a swim 2 weeks before and the coach thought she would gone faster. I was thrilled with the swim. I wonder if they have unrealistic expectations or misunderstand what they should expect.
    So, I guess my question is this: do you notice some swimmers (especially sponge-Y muscled swimmers) needing the normal 3-5 day rest yet others with heftier muscle needing more rest or is it pretty similar across the board bc of the nature of the training??
    I have my strong opinions about this but there has been no honest scientific discussion about it between coaches.
    Also, I feel very strongly that the young swimmers most certainly should NOT be resting long at all! And the coaches want them to cut back 2 weeks out from the meet. I vehemently disagree. These are tiny girls with the exception of one stronger more mature 12 yo.
    I would love anyone’s thoughts and opinions on this.
    Thank you!!

    #2942
    Avatarmmoon
    Participant

    If you wait until they can complete all 30 of a set. You will be waiting a very long time.or your speed is too slow. You reach a point of diminishing returns and it’s better to adjust pace once they can achieve X number.”

    I agree. I’ve learned for myself as a self-coached masters swimmer that staying at a particular interval until the offered number is achieved is not efficient (I offer myself 20 for my 25s, 50s and 75s). Adaptation to a new pace is very high for about 4 weeks or so, then it drastically plummets. I’ve altered my training such that I wait until I feel that the “new pace adaptation” has faded which usually coincides with about 7 intervals before first failure (about 4 weeks or so), then introduce a faster pace at that point. I’ll do this two times at which time I’ll drop back to the original pace and attempt my offered number (20). I always sail through them. The question is: Am I ahead of the game doing this? According my my training data, I am. Exposing myself to a faster pace earlier keeps me at a high level of adaptation for a longer period. What’s interesting is that although swimming to failure causes adaptation, it has a limited affect on adaptation when the body has gotten used to a particular pace. Forcing a new pace is like throwing a monkey wrench into the gears. It obliterates everything and creates a level of adaptation that swimming to failure can’t match on its own.

    #2943
    Gary PGary P
    Participant

    If you wait until they can complete all 30 of a set. You will be waiting a very long time.or your speed is too slow. You reach a point of diminishing returns and it’s better to adjust pace once they can achieve X number.”

    I agree. I’ve learned for myself as a self-coached masters swimmer that staying at a particular interval until the offered number is achieved is not efficient (I offer myself 20 for my 25s, 50s and 75s). Adaptation to a new pace is very high for about 4 weeks or so, then it drastically plummets. I’ve altered my training such that I wait until I feel that the “new pace adaptation” has faded which usually coincides with about 7 intervals before first failure (about 4 weeks or so), then introduce a faster pace at that point. I’ll do this two times at which time I’ll drop back to the original pace and attempt my offered number (20). I always sail through them. The question is: Am I ahead of the game doing this? According my my training data, I am. Exposing myself to a faster pace earlier keeps me at a high level of adaptation for a longer period. What’s interesting is that although swimming to failure causes adaptation, it has a limited affect on adaptation when the body has gotten used to a particular pace. Forcing a new pace is like throwing a monkey wrench into the gears. It obliterates everything and creates a level of adaptation that swimming to failure can’t match on its own.

    I’m curious how your race times correlate.

    #2986
    Gary PGary P
    Participant

    As documented in this forum, I had great success early adhering to “conventional” USPRT doctrine. Eventually, however, my progression stalled out. I even went backwards for a while, getting slower towards the end of the first season. I had to do something akin to a traditional taper to get back to the training paces I was doing mid-season. I had a successful final meet, but was looking forward to improving more in the coming year.

    After a short off season, I got back at it last fall. Unfortunately, I failed to make any pace advances in my core races (100, 200, 400/500 free). Frustrated, I diversified by adding longer distances and different strokes to the mix. Later in the season, I circled back to the 100 free, and, based on doc’s preaching, started tweaking the rest interval, giving myself a little extra rest. I had a bit of a break through in that race in the last meet of the season, setting a new non-shaved, no-tech-suit best by a fair margin. I actually had a better first 50 than I did when I had my best shaved, tech-suited race, although I didn’t bring it home as fast. (In retrospect, that’s not surprising given that I did very few sets of 50’s in the second half of the season.)

    Anyway, now that I have a second masters season under my belt, I have a handful of meaningful race results where I can start “looking at the data,” as doc says, for more specific training-race correlations. I don’t have a lot of data, but patterns are starting to emerge.

    My training set for 200 free is typically a 33.00 target time on a :53 interval. That’s exactly Rushall’s suggested rest, if a bit less than doc seems to prescribe. I typically experience my first failure around rep 8-10, and get to 14-18 before failing out. I only have two quality 200 free swims, but that’s 6 splits for 50’s 2-4. The average of the 6 is 32.89, with a standard deviation of .79 seconds. Take out the one final 50 on the swim where I went out a second too slow on the first 50 and closed really fast, and the average is 33.15 with a more acceptable standard deviation of .53. Either way, doc’s observed correlation is almost spot on. On the “Rushall plan,” I’ve been stuck at 33.0 for forever, thinking something’s wrong with me because I should be able be able to go deep in a set holding 32.low’s. Clearly I need to shake up the rest/work ratio so I can swim faster and get over the hump.

    As I mentioned earlier, I did just that (more rest than Rushall calls for, allowing faster target times) on my 25’s at 100 pace and saw improvement, especially in the front half. I was at 14.0 for a long time on the “Rushall Plan,” and went out in 27.93 in a 100 free in January. Went from a :29 to a :34 interval, dropped my target time to 13.75, and went out 27.58 in March. After that, I said “what the hell” and went to a 40 second interval, dropping my target time to 13.5. Went out in 27.13 in April. Long story short, I didn’t get slower taking more rest that Rushall prescribes, I got faster. And doc’s formula for front-half 100 performance was, again, almost spot on.

    Doc, I’m now buying what you’re selling. I’m working on improving my long distance stuff right now in preparation for a couple open water events this summer, but I’ll be implementing “USRPT 2.doc” once my focus shifts back to the pool.

    #2998
    Avatardoc
    Participant

    Gary,
    I apologize for the very late reply. But thank you very much for the kind words.

    One I owe a couple of Russian coaches a great deal of gratitude for introducing me to the system and the real inter workings, with out their help and sharing of their knowledge of the system I would have floundered. I will always be gratefully to them. I will say the one thing they didn’t do was correlate the protocol sets to actual race pace. Whole another topic.

    Funny thing is that most have abandoned the system. Some are here in US and I think they have fallen into “entertaining” swimmers and not truly training for human performance. I understand its grinding. You have to rehearse every day the race model. It’s like dancers they don’t rehearse the steps for 3 months and on the night of the recital change the steps.

    Man I hope this makes sense.


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in 🙂

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