Sprinters Distance Capacity-practice

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This topic contains 7 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  doc 6 months ago.

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  • #3153

    lefthanded swimmer
    Participant

    I had recently read an article about muscle fiber type (1, 2a, and 2b). The only real way to know what your composition is with a biopsy; however, there were some creative ways they had to go about testing and it had to do with # of reps @ 80% Max of bench/squat. It basically said higher number of reps, the more likely you were predominantly type 1. (I just thought this was interesting.) This brings me to my question. I had been coaching my son. He is genetically speaking a sprint/power person (23andme data). We spent the entire past year doing either USRPT or sprint type training mostly focusing on 100 events (with short intervals) with the exception being 200 IM. We rarely ever did any sets with repeat 100s much less than 200s. He swam a 2:06 200 IM; 55 flat 100 fly recently. Not D3 but getting there. He recently rejoined his club team that added a quasi sprint group and this has been good for him mentally. He recently had sets of repeat 200 IMs. His previous experience of several years of traditional training showed an overall lack of capacity for these type sets. He can’t really control fly speed that well and dies after fly on these type sets and stroke mechanics suffer. How would your sprinters do with these sets? I want to encourage my kid but I want to be realistic at the same time. I kind of think 200 IM is his top end distance limit for performance. No one wants to put a kid in a box but we actually had to do this somewhat to have some success this year to “stay in the game”.

    Sorry so long and rambling. Thanks to anyone that made it this far reading!

    #3154

    doc
    Participant

    Guess what. I have “sprinters” that are sub 1:51 2IMers and never do repeat 2IMs. 1. They can’t hold pace for more than 2. So what’s the point? Just because a coach can make them do it? Now there’s a real good reason. 2. Guess what, their technical skill goes right out the window after number 3-4 and you have now turned a thoroughbred into a donkey! Congratulations! You’re a great coach. Don’t get me started on “aerobic base” BS as an excuse.

    The guys I work with and this includes 2 that are under 1:47, plus the sub 1:51 guys. IM protocol. This is a “down and dirty” way to determine pace.
    n x 25 on 1:00 fly, divide 2IM fly split in 1/2 and that’s pace
    n x 50 on 1:30/2:00 back, use 2IM split that’s pace
    n x 50 on 1:00 breast, use 2IM split that’s pace
    n x 100 on 1:30/2:00, use 2IM split for free x 2 for pace.

    These are their averages for the season to this point. We are 14 days out of conference meet.
    n x 25 fly offered 538, made 303
    n x 50 ba 2′ offered 215, made 187
    n x 50 br 1′ offered 203, made 157
    n x 100 2′ offered 133, made 83

    This is the minimum I would expect a coach to know. How much has the athlete done this year? If as a coach you can’t answer this basic question. Then you really are doing a disservice to your athletes.

    Just a hint the longer the repeat. The further away they get from race pace correlations (Dr. Rushall is correct in his observation of this). And yes, I have the data.

    You have to “learn to the read the numbers” I know this is frustrating and it’s like trying to learn a different language. But you have to THINK! Training has TO line up with performance and performance has to line up with training.

    If someone told you coaching was easy. They lied! You only coach one swimmer. Try 42, it’s like trying to herd cats!

    food for thought


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in 🙂

    #3156

    lefthanded swimmer
    Participant

    Thank you for confirming what I thinking. I had a distraught swimmer after that practice. It was his club team that did this 200 IM mess, rather than myself. We never do 200 IMs when just with me. For IM pretty much what you provided on 50s, and some sets of 75s to get the turns in (a weakness). Thoroughbred to donkey was exactly what I was thinking! I couldn’t imagine juggling multiple swimmers like all of you guys do. I tip my hat. We have all the data on his repeats too! Thanks Doc for replying and sharing your data.

    #3158

    doc
    Participant

    Lefthandedswimer,
    Your 75s are what I do with the Sprint/IMers. I will target their weak stroke and that’s what they do for 75s. I found that you push them beyond 75s and things get really weird. They will commit to 75s, but 100s they start to get, I’ll say nervous 🙂 Hint: it’s about the speed.

    I use 2IM split of weak stroke divided in 1/2 and add that back to 2IM split as target speed. It’s not easy and they have to really work at it. The neat thing is they understand (not necessarily like it). But they know in order to go faster that they have to be better.

    Best to you!


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in 🙂

    #3159

    kevin
    Participant

    n x 25 on 1:00 fly, divide 2IM fly split in 1/2 and that’s pace
    n x 50 on 1:30/2:00 back, use 2IM split that’s pace
    n x 50 on 1:00 breast, use 2IM split that’s pace
    n x 100 on 1:30/2:00, use 2IM split for free x 2 for pace.

    @doc: Is that one set? And how much rest do they get in between the stroke changes? Or are those 4 sets? In which case: do you do them sequentially in one session?

    #3160

    doc
    Participant

    Kevin,
    They could be. If you wanted to have an “IM day” you could use that sequence. You could also “flip” it and start with 100s (this is the creative part, you have to be willing to think outside the box. But respect the principles). In my sequence of work they will get 12 bouts of each stroke in a 4 week period. As you know they swim other strokes and you have to address those. So, trying to make sure they get enough of each stroke is a challenge. I have a cycle that I’ve worked on for about 6 years that gives me 12 bouts of short to long (distance of repeat), 12 of long to short (again distance of repeat).

    I’ve attached a partial example of the cycle I use for our MD/D kids. It comes as close as I can get to trying to cover all the bases that each kid swims during the season and gives them enough bouts to create improvement. it’s worked so far.

    I’m not trying to be vague. It’s just that I’ve spent ALOT of time working on this and coaches need to invest a little time in thinking about this.

    Hope this helps and creates some thoughts


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in 🙂

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    #3162

    kevin
    Participant

    Hi @doc,

    Just so I understand: in the cycle “stk” means “a stroke”, not “best/main stroke”?

    So for week 1 I read for “stk”:
    mon: 100 (1 set long)
    tue: 100 (2 sets long to short)
    wed: 100 (2 sets short to long)
    thu: 100 (1 set short)
    fri: 100 (2 sets short to long)
    sat: 100 (1 set short)

    That’s 9 sets non-free per week, so around 3 sets per stroke per week?
    And there are no sets for 200 stk in w1 (week 2 only has 2 sets for 200 stk)?

    I currently organize micro cycles differently.
    I start of with a swimmers’ main events and try to plan 3 sets/week for this event. However, this way, I never get 3 sets of all strokes in a week.

    In attachment is an excerpt from my planning.
    In the remarks you can see how many sets per week per event I want to schedule.
    And below that which sets per event. This is for a backstroker combined with free and secondary stroke fly.

    So to do all strokes, I would have to cut back on the amount of sets per event. That scares me a bit 🙂 Wouln’t I need at least three exposures of a set per week to produce adaptation?

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    #3165

    doc
    Participant

    Kevin,
    Example: Take Tuesday. The primary stroke could be fly, ba or br for the 100 performance. They are going to work long to short with regards to repeat distance. That’s why I have 50s2 as first set and 25s1 as second set, we know they correlate to 100 performance. The secondary stroke is free working the 200, so “n x 50s on 1” or “n x 100s” would be the third set with the majority doing freestyle. But I do have kids that don’t swim freestyle and they may actual go another/different stroke.

    You’re correct in that 3 exposures per week is I think the minimum. The kid that swims some free, a little breast and is a so-so IMer is a nightmare for planning training. I’ve really tried to get them to dial into to 2 strokes. It’s like trying to train a runner for the 100, 1500 and 10K. Can it be done, maybe but I feel it’s really a half A$$ effort and things become fragmented very fast.

    Hope this helps


    ? I child proofed my house and they still get in 🙂

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