Rick
Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Actually, this is probably exactly what I needed to hear. Thanks, oldschool. I will continue to be diligent in tracking my data, and keep fighting the good fight. Thanks.
I guess that’s more my problem too, drpaul. I am used to working with many different types of kids in my classroom, and I can usually find a way to reach them. With this training, however, I’ve had some trouble finding out a way to get to all of my swimmers.
I will say I have noticed something similar to what you are seeing. With the TT our clubs would do around here, it was very easy for a swimmer to slack/hide/sit one out/phone it in (take your choice), without being noticed. I’d see a coach mention once in a while that they should pick it up, but then they would ignore the person. With this method, it is quite evident when you are not working hard based upon your goal times.
Maybe this is something I just need to learn to accept. If a swimmer by the age of 15 or 16 has refused to work hard their entire swimming career and relied just on natural talent, there might not be anything I can do.
It’s just frustrating for me personally.
Thanks for that piece of info. I didn’t know this existed. I had searched, but must have been using lousy key search words. Any experience with this? I’m just finding it tough to deal with a few specific personality types.
Wanted to keep this thread at the top. Going to try and post observations/data from past meet this coming weekend, just need to get my ducks in a row. Can say there seems to be a very strong correlation between the back half of 200 events and the goal times in 50 sets. Results were very predictable based off goal times. Also, very positive. Want to look a little more at the 100 times and my 25 sets.
Also, going to start a new topic on the personality/psychological characteristics of different swimmers. I would be very interested in seeing how this approach to training works for different types of swimmers.
Hmm. Any opinions out there on this? Makes me wonder about the one swim meet a few years ago where we were stuck in traffic, got to the meet 15 minutes before the race and only had time to jog, do some jumping jacks, and race. Thought the fast time was just a fluke.
This is interesting stuff. Since I’ve taken the approach of changing pace times but keeping the distance the same, it will be interesting to see how the numbers look over the next month. I would like to hear more about the reducing goal time vs. increasing volume discussion over the course of this year.
Because of our training limitations and pool space for our high school, I will probably have to stick to 16 x 25’s and 12 x 50’s and keep dropping goal times.
Be nice to compare numbers.
Thanks for the advice, oldschool. Going to try a tempo trainer and see if that helps my new swimmer to get the feel of solid pace at practice.
Problem with the kick in the other swimmer is that, yes, it does seem to make a difference in speed. He wants to kick, but the ankle cross just seems to come and go, and we haven’t been able to figure it out. I think it’s more of a balance problem with one arm crossing and entering the water past the midline. When we concentrate on eliminating the crossover, he loses all rotation and swims flat. He also loses his distance per stroke. Maybe late breathing?
Just baffled at this point. Am thinking more along your diminishing returns line.
Thanks again for the ideas.
I experienced the same thing with breaststroke sets. Was training the 100/200 with 16 x 25’s and 12 x 50’s. goal times were :16.5 for 25’s and :36 for 50’s on 30 secs. and 55 secs. intervals. Swimmer finally got close to completing set, but he was swimming at a stroke rate that could never be sustained in a race. He said that’s what he had to do to make it. I explained that if he isn’t training the way he races, then we aren’t going to get the results.
I raised goal times to 17.5 and :37 and asked him to swim it the right way. he did, and we have lowered the goal times to :15 and :33.25 in two months. It took some time to convince him that the faster way is the way they race. It takes a lot of reinforcement, but it is really a cool thing to see my swimmer training his br. with a solid technique and form that looks identical to how he races.
Billratio, you are asking all the right questions. I think you will see the results.
Regarding the analog clock, I went to Kiefer swimming and got a battery operated digital clock that kids can see from both sides of the pool. Made a huge difference. Much less cheating/leaving early, and it is obvious to everybody when someone tries to leave early. Also, much easier to see their time, so less of that head popping up that Glenn mentioned. Our boosters bought a larger model for about $500 so we will have digital on both start and turn side come high school season. Also, I let them start one second before the start of the swim. In actuality, they start getting ready for their pushoff 2 seconds before, and they leave about 3/4 of a second before the actual start time. The important thing is they do this consistently, so we know they are getting faster if they drop their goal time.
I experience the same thing with our breast and fly sets. They definitely get faster, but the goal time in practice is slower than they race. Again, I stress to them that if they can drop their goal time, it will equate to faster times.
I am a firm believer that you can’t allow the little “cheating” that swimmers do to make their times. It is too demoralizing to those swimmers who did it the right way and missed their goal and are sitting one out. What I am going to do this season, if necessary, is move those swimmers who refuse to follow the rules to their own lane and let them know that when they are ready to train the way we have instructed them, I would be happy to put them back in their usual lane. Might sound harsh, but I learned last year that it can be highly infectious, and it is not training at race pace.
For what it’s worth, I wasn’t as strict with the 20 second max rest last season, as evidenced by my “dropping the interval” post, but the results were fairly solid for a high school team that only gets 75 minutes/5 days a week to train.
So much of this is dealing with the individual personalities/psychology of the swimmers. I hope that I’m not the only one mentally exhausted at the end of our practice. Having coached the traditional way, I can see why this is a tough program for a coach who has already worked an 8 hour day.
Hang in there. Went through a lot of what you are experiencing last season, but the results made believers out of most of our swimmers.
This is exactly what I am going to try and get a feel for over the next month. I have 3 boys who I’ve been working with and tracking every set with a stopwatch to avoid any cheating. I know they say it’s a waste of time to time your swimmers, but it’s easy to do with only 3 swimmers. None of the swimmers have experienced any growth spurts since last year.They are all between 16-18.
Our sets hve been fairly repetitive because 2 of the boys have the goal of making it to districts before they graduate. The other is a junior, and he is training for more events. Here is what we have been doing:
25/50/75 free sets. training 400% distance of the 100 free with 16 x 25. training 300% of 200 with 12 x 50, and only 16 x 75 for the 500 which isn’t even 300%.
25/50 breast. Same sets as the free
25 back. same set as the 25 free
50 fly/back. We swim 25 fly then 25 back to work the middle strokes of the 200 IM, and we swimm 300% race distance there, too. Hoping that the sets of free and breast will take care of the rest. Adding lots of back to breast turn work between sets. This is the one that I’m curious about. We did two weeks of this leading up to winter sr. champs, and got good results. Now, we will have a solid 6 weeks to work this.
I know it’s not a lot of variety, and I’ve just started doing some 75’s at 200 rp based on what some people have said, but it won’t be enough, I believe, to really be a factor.
All of my swimmers will get to race the events we have been training for at usa meets over the next month, and then I’m going to sit down and see how closely the training times equate to actual race performance.
I really do like the ideas of Dr. Rushall, but I also agree with another post of yours where you stated we have to be willing to experiment with this to find out what works best. My repeat numbers seem to be much lower than others here, but that’s just the approach I decided to take.
For both meets, I am going to do a 2 day (50% then 25%) rest/taper. I want to leave them feeling like they had a shot to swim well, but a full 3 day recovery and a shave will make them faster. Might sound silly, but these are sharp kids, and they know that this won’t be the full recovery/taper we will follow in March.
For better or worse, I will post as much data as I can after these meets. After all the help you’ve given me with your advice, oldschool, it’s the least I can do!
Thanks for the feedback, 6102 and oldschool. The approaches make good sense to me.
I have been fairly strict about following Rushall’s prescribed guidelines this past summer(10-20 seconds rest depending on distance). I figured I couldn’t offer constructive criticism or feedback until I had given it a shot. Very pleased with the results, but as stated before, don’t have a large enough sample to draw from.
Regarding the “double whammy,” I think I will take your advice. We just dropped the goal time which then called for a drop in the rest interval. Think I will give them a chance to feel a little successful with the new goal time, then drop the rest interval in some sort of alternating fashion between new and old intervals.
Based on what some people have written, I’ve focused primarily on first miss and yards at race pace as my guide in evaluating improvements, and I don’t want my yards at race pace to drop off the chart because of a new goal and reduced interval. Additionally, I keep experiencing a “when it rains, it pours” effect with my swimmers. If they drop goal time in their 50 free, they also experience drops in 1 or 2 other sets. Good problem to have, but I tend to be unrelenting in trying to make each practice a positive experience, and I want to avoid sets of multiple frustration.
Thanks again.
I agree, Greg. Not sure I buy the idea of acclimating to the idea of chaos, unless you give them frequent repeated exposures to it. As a teacher, I would need to do this very frequently in order to help the kids work through the various stresses and feelings that must be managed.
I do like that somebody is making the effort to understand why this type of training might appeal to kids today. Some provactive connect-the-dots thinking!
Question: Are they circle swimming because there is more than one swimmer in the lane? If they are, then that will help in offsetting the added time for a turn instead of a finish after each 50. If they aren’t circle swimming, then you need to factor that into your projection.
When we train 25’s for the 100 events, the start off the blocks tends to equal out the 3 turns they need to do. Not completely, but to some extent.
We are moving indoors next week, and my small group of swimmers will have to share a lane and circle swim. I will add a quarter second to each of their goal times in their 50’s to offset this. I will add half a second in the 75’s. It’s not perfect, but it seems to lead to about the same number of repeats.
By the way, does anybody have a good number on about how long each of the turns for each stroke takes? I would like to factor that into my projections and so would my swimmers.I haven’t been able to find this information
