billratio
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Thanks. Those intervals make it look much more realistic. What interval are the 100s on? Do you ever do a larger test of 100s and specifically have it aimed at 500 pace(100s 2-5)?
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
I apologize to the original posters for highjacking this topic but…
Oldschool, could you give more details on the tests? What kind of rest are they getting? Are the 50s at 100 or 200 pace? I have zero swimmers who could swim 6×50 at 100 pace with 20 seconds rest. Perhaps that is just a problem with my coaching/training though. 100s at 500 pace seems realistic to me but are you doing the 100s at 200 pace? 5 of them?
When calculating predictions from the test sets do you combine the results of all the tests or just use the most recent one?
You talked about recovery days for distance swimmers. Do you ever do recovery days for other swimmers or is it typically not needed for those who are only doing 25s and 50s?
I’m reading Periodization Training for Sports right now (I think it’s the easier to understand version of the Bompa book you recommended). Supertraining came in the mail yesterday but I haven’t started it yet.
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
Yes, that is very helpful. I am able to do it now. I have a couple other questions.
What data do you include when calculating this? Every single repeat or do you just put a certain number for each set you did throughout the season? Does that make sense? I’m assuming it’s a certain number for each day or that would be 1000s of numbers.
Do you include only recent data? What if they have improved on their sets significantly through the year? Doesn’t that mean you should only include the latest month of data for your predictions?
Do you ever see swimmers going faster than their mean by the standard deviation? I have a girl who’s average 25 for 100 back pace has been 16.36 throughout the year. Standard deviation of .38 would put that as slow as 1:06.9. Would it also work the other way and the race could end up as fast as 1:03.9? (This is based on pretty limited numbers. Still trying to get to the point where I can record everything for every swimmer).
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
Oldschool, how do you figure out standard deviation?
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
I wouldn’t want to guess too high because I don’t want you to be disappointed but I would say at least 1.5-2 percent for a good suit. So that would be around 5-6 seconds for a 5:50 500 free. With the rest/shave/suit my two main 500 girls went from 5:47 (5:50 most meets) and 5:40 (5:43ish most meets) down to 5:33 and 5:28. A lot of coaches and parents disagree with me but I think the suit does a TON. I’m young enough to have had a lot of experience swimming with and without them. Just make sure you get a good one.
I wouldn’t abandon the 50s altogether. If you really think you can hold 33low on them then try to do that and build the number up as high as you can while still doing your 75s at normal pace.
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
I’m really no expert at 500 race strategy. Those first splits actually look pretty typical. Most people will swim at least 3 seconds faster than their pace on the first 50 even when relaxing. Maybe going 31.5, 34, then settling into your pace would be better. I really think getting a full week of rest before your important meets will help that second half though.
I think switching to 75s or even 100s is a good idea. For 100s if I have a swimmer trying to go 5:30.00 in the 500 it is a lot to ask them to hold 1:06.0 in repeat 100s. Instead you could try to hit the pace you’ll be holding in the middle of the 500.
If you could hold 36.0 on your slowest 50s then with the the extra time you save on the first couple and last 50 you would pretty easily be able to break 5:50.
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
Thanks for posting your results! I’m guessing a more evenly split race could have been well under 5:50.
I agree that 50s alone probably won’t cut it for some people unless the numbers are very very high. Still, 5:54.0 is not bad when your 50 set would have predicted 5:50. You have to account for the turns so if you want to be going 5:40 your 50s need to be 33.0.
I’m also wondering how sure you are of what your 50 times are in practice? Are they 34.0 or is it possible you are swimming 34.5s? My swimmers usually think they are going .5-1 second faster than they are on 50s until I’ve corrected them many times. When you’re talking about a 500, going .5 slower per 50 is going to be huge. Actually .5 per 50 would be huge in any race.
Do you compete with a tech suit?
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
I was extremely frustrated with how my swimmers swam the entire first full season I ran USRPT. We didn’t see the results I thought we would until doing a full rest and putting on tech suits.
I would just say work very hard to hold everyone accountable to their paces. Trust that when you give them a week of rest they will be ready to hit every goal time.
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
I’m surprised they find it so easy @ 15 sec rest. I would really be interested in what your results have been like. Rushall said there was a study that showed a correlation between yards and the performance of female distance swimmers. With an extremely small sample size (3) we had success training primarily 50s @500 pace. 17 seconds rest and 15 seconds rest. But that was with around 45 50s completed most days.
Would you be willing to post some race splits?
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
Well, I probably would have failed to do the documentation if everyone else did as well.
Where can i purchase the books you mentioned in your first post? I need to learn more!
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
Very helpful discussion. I would love to learn more about the Parametric System.
I echo what Oldschool said about Rushall. At the very least he has gotten more coaches thinking. If not for his work I would still be trying to write practices like I was given in HS, Club, and College. I have deviated from USRPT a bit in the rest interval area but stick very closely to it otherwise. USRPT has completely changed how I coach.
I’ve been recording numbers much better than last season with a group of my club swimmers. Championships in 2 weeks will be interesting. We’ve had so much less time to be in the pool but still look like we could have some fast swims.
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
I can only speak for our group. When I say we reached a certain amount of reps before failure it means the first failure. We keep track of total before first failure and total before 3rd failure though so we have both numbers.
We include the first 4 reps in the total number. 12 means 12 for us.
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
I’ve heard a lot of talk about the “aerobic base” but I’m still not sure what it means and if there is any actual evidence to support it. I don’t know of any evidence to disprove it either so what I say doesn’t mean much. It just seems like a strange idea that aerobic work you do as a 12-14 year old could still be affecting you when you’re 20. I heard Bob Bowman once say that Phelps did his the aerobic work he needed when he was young so he was able to train completely differently when he was older. It sounds crazy to me.
I am not an expert on physiology. Can someone explain the position of the “aerobic base” people a little more clearly to me?
I also think USRPT does a lot more aerobically than people give it credit for.
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
Thank you very much for sharing!
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
I don’t think it would be a problem. I had a girl hitting 60+ 25s at her 100 free pace throughout the practice in addition to her 50 free training. I was ending a lot of practices with 25s @1:00 and that usually got them all swimming faster than 100 pace. Oldschool said that may have built up some speed reserve for them.
Part of me wondered if we should have dropped her goal time since she was completing 24 straight at her pace but it was very late in the season that she built up to that number.
"Most people have the will to win. Few have the will to prepare to win."
