oldschoolc
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Really. I have 32 and 12 of them are the PRO model (3 buttons) tempo trainers. We have used them for over 3 years and done just about everything you can do to them. I have one right now and I’m trying to get it to do it, even went back through the manual. No luck and I tried all 3 modes.
Ask them what mode that’s in.
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
What where her times for the 25s and 50s before testing? Also of the total number offered of 25s and 50s do you have her % made? If she is above 40% she should have decent master of the speed.
Remember it’s a race range. The ultimate would be the 58.07 and more likely in the 59.65 range, even if she went 1:00 that would be a good swim. Her deviation on the 25s is good. On her 50s, we’d like to see .30 or less. Just to give you an idea.
You could test again. Just for the fact you haven’t done this before I’d say 4 days out and then shut it down with regards to testing. Just to give you an idea we tested 6 x 50 on 1:00, on Tuesday and that’s all we did fast. Today was a travel and light swim day and we’re at our sectional meet starting tomorrow. 6 of the 8 that I have here lowered their avg speed again over testing last week. 1 just missed and the other is struggling but when you have a maxHR of 202 and the average HR on the 50s is 167.1, you are operating at roughly 82% of max. good luck on trying to go faster. (we use a POLAR F4 HRM with chest strap) not the athlete counting beats.
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Kinda of an old “rule of thumb” was Free and Back 3 seconds or faster and Breast and Fly 4 seconds or faster. Just as general guidelines. If you take some time and do a little sinple arithmetic you’ll see that it still pretty much holds true.
Your girl that split 27.1 – 28.7, actually swam it exactly how she should have. Think of it as energy distrubtion and being as efficient as possible like “goldie locks” out not too fast and not too slow, but just right and had plenty of “gas” to come back with. Think about how we plan races. Coaches are always saying ” you have to be out in X:XX.XX”, never do we say I’d like you back in X:XX.XX. We plan the race from the front to the back and maybe a better way would be from the back to the front. Got that from Bill Boomer in 1992. It’s really difficult to teach/manage with any athlete in any sport i.e. running, swimming and rowing, etc.
The 100 fly. She will split it how she has trained for it and if she deviates from that then all bets are off. Again think about it she trains to go out in 29.?? but goes out in say 28.34, she puts herself and her brain in an area she has not been in and you just hope that the wheels don’t come off the wagon during the race.
It’s really hard for them to understand that leading at the first 50 has no bearing at the 100.
I hope this made sense
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
100s are on 1:30 and we test 5 x 100 for both 500/200 swimmers
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
I got to thinking about that myself that we kinda sent this thread off into a different direction. I should have started a new thread on “Theory and Methodology” Oh well.
4 x 25s are on 1:00, they are for the first 50 of 100
4 x 50s on 2:00, are for second 50 of 100 (forgot to include in first post)
6 x 50 are on 1:00, they are for 50s 2, 3, & 4 of 200. If you look at your race splits you should see that the first 50 is very close to the “50s on 2:00” average or the second 50 of 100.
100s, this gets interesting as they can be back half of 200 (which is what we normally see) or if you look at your 500 splits could be 100s 2 thru 5.Calculating predictions: I will usually use an average of the test sets.
Recovery days: During the 1st phase where we are trying to accumulate as much potential as we can and allowing them to STOP when they can no longer hold pace recovery days are few and fall between. We’ll normally do three sets per work out. The distance kids because of the distance of the swims puts them into a very “gray” area of energy usage which is very fatiguing and you need to pay attention as a coach to this which is why I allow them days where they have no timed sets and easy swimming.
On the books: On Bompa that’s ok. At least you have an understanding of training and its methodology. And all that goes into human performance. Wait until you start reading “Supertraining”
I have attached some of the information I gave at the Fargo Clinic.
Best to you and your swimmers and hope this helps.
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
We do a no-no in USRPT and we test. About three weeks out of our championship performance we’ll do 4 x 25, 6 x 50, 5 x 100 done stroke and free (3 x 200 and 3 x 400 free, if I have distance kids). The goal is to be faster than the swimmer’s current average. I’ll record every time for each repeat and figure Stdev. They will have at least two to three opportunities in the last three weeks to lower average/Stdev. This is really the 2nd strategy of the Parametric System. “The distance is now constant, speed is increasing” This is what Dr. Beliaev was discussing in his SW review about USRPT and what it leaves out with regards to integration of the systems. I have had a number of coaches’ reply off-forum about “my kids can swim forever at that speed. But just can’t seem to get up and GO! And I really think that is a problem with USRPT.
Nice! Picking up on “swimmers going faster than their mean …” Yes! You can use it to develop a range that the swimmer will possibly swim in which is 1. Average minus deviation 2. They hold their average and 3. Average plus deviation. If we use my example from the last post she would have had a range of 33.85 to 34.79. What it does is give the coach an idea based on data and not on some time the swimmer went back in December to try and come up with a performance projection. There are about five ways a swimmer will put races together using the average, average plus or minus.
Please don’t get me wrong I’m not against USRPT. I believe Dr. Rushall gives coaches a structure to work in when none really existed. Most of what coaches get is bits and pieces and most of it anecdotal information from some clinic that coaches paid good money for and really didn’t get much of anything. I have probably been to over 30 clinics and I can tell you only three gave me any objective information that I could actually take back and use and we’re not talking about some set so and so did in June of 1992.
Sorry for the soapbox
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Well if you are good with a hand held calculator it will take about six steps. I use to do it by calculator and man what a pain! Then I found out how to do it in EXCEL and now it takes about 10 seconds.
Go into EXCEL help or there has to be a youtube video on it and it will show you how. it’s really simple. I’m no computer wiz and I figured it out.
Remember it’s the “average distance to the mean”. I use it to show reliability of the mean. Or how good is that time. Higher stdev. the lower relability and the lower the stdev.the higher relability.
It comes in handy when doing race projections as using just averages can be very misleading.Swimmer A has avg time of 32.23 on 50s on ??? and a stdev of 1.22, so they now have a race range of 32.23 to 33.45, big difference if you just used the avg to figure projected race time.
Swimmer B has avg time of 32.23 on 50s but a stdev of .34, they have a race range of 32.23 to 32.57. same avg but much better reliability.
May be one explaination of how two swimmers with the same average can go different times.
Hope this helps 🙂
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
I’ll give the good Dr. kudos for getting coaches to think about what it is they’re doing in workout. But much of his information is based on some studies and his best educated guess. There has been NO data presented to support much of what he has stated and remember for the most part the “n” is still one, MA. Years ago the old adage was “2 x the race distance” which actually fits closer to what I’ve seen.
What we have seen is they need to complete in the neighborhood of 37% or higher of numbers offered for consistent improvement in performance. Example had girl drop 8 seconds in 200ba this weekend. She had a total number of “50s on 1” to this point in the season of 444 she has made 174 or 37.19%, her 200 pace for practice was 34.12 and she had an average of 50s 2 , 3, & 4 of 34.79, for the race. If you figure her standard deviation into the performance of .47 she is 34.32. This holds true for the majority of the group. So pretty close for an old guy with a stopwatch.
800/1500 question. This is not going to sit well with the purist of USRPT. But we use 100s with :15ri, 200s with :15ri and have also gone up to 400s with 15ri for the distance events. Using the same principles of USRPT training “of once they can no longer hold pace let them stop” This keeps the fatigue factor to a minimum with regards to energy expenditure and accumulation of fatigue over the training cycle. Any group doing this 3 time per week will need recovery days as this is very fatiguing!
200s work well for the 800/1000 using pace for the middle pace of 800/1000 and 400s fit well for 1500/1650 using a middle 400 pace for 1500/1650.
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Amsepamse,
Actually, “it’s not unreasonable to believe that you will make the time on 100…” you might have a rough time at 7 x 25 made. But at 15 x 25 made, it would be reasonable to expect an improvement in performance. It’s over one shift in energy systems.The number made to create an adaptation is actually quite small (just has to be consistence) and where the 4 to 6 x race distance came from is “purely” a guess. Unless, you want to spend a large amount of time trying to drive the speed down to aerobic capacity I’d rethink the approach.
6102,
The use of goal times is appropriate. What you will see is that the numbers achieved/made progress at a much slower rate especially early in the cycle. I’ve done this on at least four cycles with 20+ swimmers and had excellent results. It is a little rough on the kids as they are use to making larger numbers early, but doable.Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Biiratio,
You can find Bompa’s books on amazon: Periodization 5th edition
Yuri Verkshansky at verkshansky.com: it’s now Super Training 6th editionOldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Billratio,
With regards to learning more about the Parametric System I think that time may have pasted. The one Russian coach and one Lithuanian professor really don’t speak about it much anymore. Both worked with or under Dr. S. Gordon (the originator of the Parametric System). I met the Russian coach in 1994 and of the 15 or so coaches that tried to practice the Parametric System I believe I’m the only one left using the system. (Not that they are bad coaches. But the record keeping is enormous and most coaches can’t or won’t do it for extended periods) this is sad; as they are extremely knowledgeable about training and adjustments that coaches can make during training. I know that the Lithuanian professor Dr. G. Sokolovas was with USA Swimming and producing valuable information for coaches, if USA Swimming management and coaches had, had the knowledge of how to use it he would still be there. I have Dr. Sokolovas book and I spent over a year translating it from Lithuanian to English. The information is amazing. I will always be grateful to them for sharing their knowledge.Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Kevin,
I knew eventually the guys from 3S would enter the equation.I mean this as no disrespect to the USRPT crowd. But the Parametric System (PS) is like PhD type work compared to mid-level HS with USRPT. The amount of work i.e. recording, tracking and adjusting that is needed in the PS system is 10 fold to USRPT (we can barely get coaches to record numbers done and made in USRPT). I work with a couple of young coaches here and they are so inconsistent in recording it’s extremely difficult to help them.I have always posted that USRPT is a variation of PS, if you understand the PS of training. They follow basically the same path. I will agree with Dr. Beliaev, that PS is a more integrated approach in overall systems development. Which USRPT does not do especially with regards to distance swimming?
Dr. Beliaev is correct in that “speed at your main distance depends on performance at ALL distances”. It’s the whole PS in a nutshell. ALL SYSTEMS MOVE TOGETHER, especially in the PS first strategy, which is “SPEED IS CONSTANT AND DISTANCE IS INCREASING”
Dr. Beliaev is correct again in that the core claim of USRPT “does not reach levels of exhaustion close to VO2 max”. OK stop and think about this 20 x 50, on whatever interval is a 1000 y/m of total work or 10:00 minutes of work time swimming at 200/500 pace and with any understanding of energy systems is V02 max energy system and is fatiguing as hell.
Power development: This has come up in the forum a couple of times. I have suggested doing 4-6 x 25 on a longer rest interval i.e. 1:00 to 2:00 and the USRPT “purist” has trouble with the rest interval. But if you understand the development of power then you get the longer rest and by some of the responses from coaches it’s worked.
I will disagree with Dr. Beliaev, in that “USRPT does not allow for intelligent management of all factors…” He comes with a knowledge base of training far and above the majority of coaches. But USRPT at least was gotten a lot of coaches to stop and think about their training. I’m guessing here, but I think that’s a good thing.
Dr. Rushall has good or bad at least thrown out an idea and used evidence to back it up and I believe in the long run that’s a good thing for coaches. He has done this without charging coaches a dime for the information. He has compiled a site that at least supplies coaches a one stop shop for some of the latest information in sports science and again I have to believe that’s not a bad thing.
Ask Dr. Beliaev to explain the important of KTs through a season or the importance of time trials during the season? How numbers done progresses through a 16 week 1st Strategy PS season with swimmers of high, middle or lower level improvements? How training sets correlate to race speed/projections? My guess is crickets! Don’t get me wrong. His knowledge is his property and he can do with it as he pleases.
To get an idea of where Dr. S. Gordon and Dr. S. Beliaev come from try reading the following books. I thought I was a good coach until I read these books. To the Russians these are basics.
“Programming and Organization of Training” by Dr. Yuri V. Verkoshansky
“Theory and Methodology of Training” by Dr. Tudor O. Bompa (one of the originators of periodization of training and one of the world’s foremost authorities on weight training)
Had an opportunity to meet him and spent over 2 hours asking questions about training and he said “that swimming is a total different animal with regards to training” and especially dryland/weight work.I apologize for the fragmentation of the responses.
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Kevin,
I’d keep the 3 x per week for sure. But what I’d do is break it up. “Specific speed over the distance”We have used 100s, 75s and 50s for our 400 swimmers. I cycle them by day and week.
This sets primary distance rotation for first set in workout. It gives them an opportunity to swim each distance fresh, try and improve number of makes from last time.
Monday 100s, Wednesday 75s and Saturday 50s
Monday 75s, Wednesday 50s and Saturday 100s (might need to be ready that Sat. could be rough)
Monday 50s, Wednesday100s and Saturday 75sEarly season numbers:
3-4 x 100, 6 x 75 and 9 x 50 and by the end of the season we should be in the 9-12 x 100, 12-16 x 75s and 16-20 x 50s. That’s the plan and you know as well as the rest of the coaches that the plan can come to a screeching halt at anytime. But that’s what we are trying to get accomplished.
So a workout say mid-season might look like this:
10-12 minutes warm-up
6 x 15m turns (start from 7.5m) to a 3 hand hit breakout
8 x 100 @ “n x 100” pace on 1:30, we’ll look for improvement here over last time
8-10 minutes of skill or easy swimming
10 x 50 @ “n x 50” pace on :50/1:00. If the 50s had been first it may have been 14-20 but because it’s second I try and take into account “accumulation of fatigue” and what I’m looking for here is to at least maintain numbers made and there are times some actually will improve. That’s ok.
Again, 8-10 minutes skill or easy swimming
12 x 25 stroke on 1:00 @ “n x 25” pace. Here we are just maintaining numbers made.
Go home!
I reread you original post and your girl said some interesting about not being tried but just couldn’t go any faster. She might be saying but not knowing this that it’s a “speed reserve” issue.
My question to you is do you do any supplemental speed work? Maybe 4-6 x 25s on 1:00 at first 50 speed of 100 or 6-8 x 50s on 1:30/2:00, at second 50 of 100 to just get up and get going!
Just thinking out loud
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
I would have to agree with dmuecke in that she trained for a 4:43 400m. I would also agree with gsbelbin that sets before or after the 30 x 50, have an “energy cost” or” accumulation of fatigue” over the course of the week/season regardless of what the “bulletins” say. This whole “20 second” rule” is just a “SWAG” I have not seen anywhere on this forum or others post any race performance data to prove that it is somehow the “gospel”
I think that Wordofmouth is correct in that longer swims maybe the answer. It’s called “speed endurance”. Using 50s to try and predict anything greater than 200 is risky at best. We use “n x 100s with :15/:20” rest for 400+ swimmers and use the average of 2, 3, & 4 100s of 400 to determine 100 paces for” n x 100 with :15/:20”. Our correlation of 100s practice speed to race performance is .987 – .95673 with an (n of 1800 splits). Data with regards to 50s and 75s to the 400+ I have none as I believe that it’s too short a distance for race performance reliability.
Just thoughts
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Ok. Let me take a whack at this.
Instead of saying “aerobic base” Break it down to what adaptations occur in the “aerobic base”? Increase in collateral circulation, increase in mitochondrial density, increases respiratory functions and CNS; namely its neuromuscular co-ordination SPECIFIC to endurance activities and the list could go on.
Then what occurs with USRPT/Race Pace or whatever you want to call it? Roughly the same adaptations occur.
My question then becomes “If both make roughly the same adaptations where’s the advantage with traditional training”?
The whole base development at early ages is a little baffling to me as if the adaptations at 10 years old somehow last a lifetime. Really! Man I wish it did. I’d still be a stud at 60. Use altitude training as an example. We go up from sea level to 7,000ft. The body says wait a minute need to make some adjustments here and over about a 10 day period of time you start to feel a heck of a lot better and can actual do activities without collapsing. Because the body knew it had to do something so it increased mitochondrial density, etc. Now when I go back to sea level those adjustments will go back to normal as the body recognizes there isn’t the demand any more. It’s called “homeostasis”
Billratio is correct in that USRPT is more aerobic than most coaches think. Think about it. When you first start the season kids are making 4-6 of the repeats and then as the season progresses they can make 12-16 out to 20 and then you readjust pace. How did that occur? 4-6 x 50, then to 20 x 50 is not the same energy system. It’s the old endurance thru speed concept and it’s been around awhile.
I know the “purists” will get all worked up about this. But if you just have to do some type of more traditional training then put it that the end of workout. Make your first two sets USRPT/RP again whatever you call it and look for improvement in numbers made in both sets and then the third set is long distance aerobic go 8-12 minutes of steady state swimming. In fact we’re doing that today with 150s. You just have to remember that it is sucking up energy stores.
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
