oldschoolc
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drpaul,
I’d be interested to know what were their pace times for 25s, 50s and 75s (if you did them)Also what were their 1st 50 splits of 100s and 2nd 50 splits? What was the 1st 50 split of 200s and the average of 50s 2, 3, & 4 in the 200s? Their splits for the 2IM?
Trying to see if there is a correlation between practice and race speeds.
Thanks,
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
crmejean,
I’d be interested to know what they were holding for pace in practice on 25s, 50s and 75s (if you did them)?
What were their race splits i.e. 1st 50 of 100, 2nd 50 of 100? If they swam 200s what was the 1st 50 split? What was the average of 50s 2, 3, & 4? If they swam the 2IM what were their splits?Just trying to get a feel for correlations of practice times to race times.
Thanks
Oldschool
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Rick,
Here is a sample data sheet for “n x 50 fr on 1:00/:50” Just to show things you might want to record. That’s up to you.The workout data sheet is how I get numbers from practice to the Excel sheet. Years ago I had them record their numbers and was handling 24 sheets of paper. Then we went to using gray clipboards 1 per lane and they could write in pencil so it didn’t matter if they got wet they could still write on them. They also drew pictures and were a pain to clean every day. But it dropped the paper handling from 24 to 8. Now I use the workout data sheet and after each set just walk down the lanes and ask for numbers, takes about 3 minutes and I’m handling one sheet of paper for recording data into spreadsheet.
Once you get one sheet made it’s just copying over for another set.
Just some ideas
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Grand Canyon University in Phoenix, Arizona. Just went DI and good program.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Drpaul,
I read your post on your situation, sounds like you are now up to your “!@# in alligators, trying to remember the primary objective is to drain the swamp” Humor some times helps:)The sets we use are more of a Parametric System approach. Same damn principle; swim at race pace for as many repeats as you can and do more than you did the last time. The two differences are controlling the number offered and aerobic swimming (pulling, kicking and whatever else they have you do. We dropped all that back in 90s). Numbers; USRPT is 20-30 x 25, etc. and record numbers. With the Parmetric System you progressive move numbers i.e. week 1 would be 6 x 25 on 1:00, the following week might be 8 x 25, moving the numbers and is based on how the athletes are doing and are they making them or are they having problems. So with a VERY fundamental understanding here are the sets.
Senior swimmers do: They will do 3 sets per day and QUALITY OF MOVEMENT sets/TECHNIQUE between sets
n x 25 on 1:00, fr & stk
n x 50 on 2:00, fr & stk
n x 50 on 1:00, fr & stk (can be modified to 1:10 for Br/Fl)
n x 75/100 on 2:00 fr & stk
n x 150/200 with :30 rest fr
Distance kids may also go:
n x 400 fr with :15 restEarly season they will go 1:30 to 1:40 practice time and as numbers progress will be in the 1:50 to 2:00 hours per workout. Which makes total since as they become more “fit” they can do more.
Age groupers: This is what we call the “IM protocol” The interval is going to be controlled by ability and the amount of time you have for practice. ” We train for the IM” can’t tell you how many times I hear that from age group coaches and when asked about what sets they do “they don’t have a clue”
They will do 1 to 2 sets per workout depending on how they are doing with quality of movement and speed. My age group coaches have a good feel for when the wheels are about to come flying off the wagon and always have a quality of movement set ready to go.
n x 25 fl
n x 50 ba
n x 50 br
n x 75/100 as frit’s a simple game. Once you understand the rules.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Rob,
Gruber and Tucker are right! I have run similar system for the past 18 years with 10 standardized protocol sets, 5 free and 5 stroke we run them every week and have for 18 years recording data on each set. Not one kid has quit because it was boring/mandane. They enjoy knowing where they stand with regards to their goals at any point in the season. Wait until they go off to college and come back with “we never do the same set twice” or “they never write anything down” and the list goes on. You want frustration and boredom.Standardization will create “teachable moments” i.e. “50s on 1:00” pace is 33sec and they swim in a meet and hold 33.6 for 50s 2,3,& 4. You can now talk about how that set relates to swimming the 200s. They will began to see the correlations and know each set has a place in building the race. That’s not mundane to them that’s engaging.
I agree with Gruber. I think that coaches feel if they don’t entertain them they will quit and that’s simply not the case.
and that’s my 4 cents 🙂
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Rick,
I use a SEIKO 10 bar 300 split. I just start the watch and use the lap/split button to get times.
Start watch and every time a swimmer touches it just split, split, etc. The SEIKO is expensive but any good stop watch will have that function.Hope that helps
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Rick,
Working at goal speed as a target time is rough. I got cute (and all full of myself) about 8 years ago and tried that with my kids and had pretty much the same results, they could make very few of them, yes they did improve. But man was it a rocky road and made me nervous too.400/500 guys. The idea of 50 front 1/2 isn’t bad. Then maybe combine them with 75 and 100s at back half pace, example: 6 x 50 at pace on :50/1:00, 2 x 75 at pace on 1:30/1:40, 1 x 100 on 1:40/1:50 (just guessing pace will determine interval) at pace and do them as rounds maybe 3-4 rounds with :30 rest between rounds. You would be looking at 3x as 1650 to 4x as 2200 tvw at 400/500 pace, not an easy set. you might do the first two rounds as above and maybe drop the 100s on the 3rd round and the 75s on the 4th or reverse it and go the other way and add the 75s and 100s You just have to read the kids and present the challenge. The key is holding “race pace”
With your breaststrokers try using the average of 2, 3, & 4 of their current best time and see if that makes a difference. The 2:16 is probably out in 31 mid and then holds in the 34 mid to high range? So we’d use 34.81 to 35.51 (.69+) for HS swimmers is about average, as the target times. Basically what you are doing with the 35.5 as a “no slower than time”. Also any time you adjust speed they will regress a little i.e. if they could make say 8-10 total at 36s, then you move them to 35s, they may fall back to in the neighborhood of 5-7, which is ok.
Don’t apologize for your group size. It’s what you have and what you are seeing with that group. At least you are pay attention and starting to use the data to try and make your swimmers better. It’s a start and can be a very interesting journey.
Just my thoughts
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
I’m sorry if this is upsetting! But you can’t do a GOGGLE search of SIT, RST and SMIT and find out for yourself. It took me all of 10 minutes to find out about the above 3 training systems.
Some time you have to help yourself!
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
He’s just correlated his training speeds to race performance. How it should be. It needs to line up. training pace to race performance and race performance to training.
We use the below to establish training pacen x 25 are 1/2 of 1st 50 of 100
n x 50 use 2 second 50 of 100 (done with longer rest than USRPT would like)
n x 50 use average of 50s 2, 3, & 4 in the 200
n x 100 use average of 100s 2, 3, & 4 in the 400/500
couple of variations we’ve used:
* n x 100 use 2nd 100 of 200, works with kids that may not swim 400/500
n x 75 at ” * n x 100″ pace from above, works for those that may struggle with 100s and use with breaststrokers and flyers, they seem to carry better speed and skill.The funny (in a good way) thing about using race to training and vice versa is the kids start to catch on and realize that every time they go a best time that training speeds have to get faster.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
I agree with wrmscoach. In the west during the olympic year a number of meets we go to are run LC (opportunities for trial cuts) during the SC season. We have no ability to train LC at that time and have always done very well at those meets.
I would prefer to train SCM year-round. Better speed, technical skill and easy to convert LC times.
Mark Temple, that’s a blast from the past! Listened to him speak at a Western States Coaches Clinic in California, mid 80s it was an excellent talk!
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Coach Erik,
We have the same struggles. Every season when we switch over from SCM to LCM they will “plug and chug” on the 50s and we do them 3 times a week free and 3 times a week stroke and takes them 4-6 weeks to get in the groove.We don’t adjust pace “slow down to go faster?”. The best success has been in the early season is to adjust the set instead of 12-20 x 50 as a straight set. We will break them into sets of 6-8 and do 4 to 5 rounds with an additional :20/:30 rest between rounds. Watch their respiration rate as a guide if by the end of 20/30 seconds they could hold a conversation with someone then rest was too long and readjust. Usually into the second and third rounds nobody is talking to anybody regardless if it’s 20 or 30 seconds 🙂 As the season progress and they have “accumulated some potential” we then will move into more of a straight set i.e. 12-20 x 50 and do that set 2x.
just a thought
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Usually 3. They are pretty good about grouping themselves according to pace time and will split so a couple start from one end and some from the other side. That seems to work a little better or just prolongs the mess. Over the course of say 30 x 25 there’s going to be a time that they overlap and have to get maybe 1 beep additional rest. OK they deal with it and keep to the set as close as possible.
The whole system is messy. Kids out at 6 on a set of 16 x 50, others make all 16. you have kids everywhere.Looks like we’re trying to herd cats at times. But it is fun!
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Not that I know of.
There are a number of ways to use the TT that we have played with.
1. straight one to one w:r e.g. pace time is 12.35 rest is 12.35
2. we have cut that in 1/2 and used 6.17, so it takes 2 beeps to get there but they only get 1/2 for rest. This can get tough. So we may have them go 8 x 25 at 1:1, then go 4 at 1:1/2 and then follow that up with 8 at 1:1. Not bad for 25s but they are not fans when we do this for 50s.
3. If I want to extend the rest then I’ll have then go with 2 beep rest or 3 beep rest.
4. You can also challenge them and see if they can make pace with only one beep or 1/2, if you have them set pace at 1/2 50 speed. Less rest at race pace! we have done it as 10 x 50 at 1:1, 6 at 1:1/2 and then 10 x 50 at 1:1. it’s a *&^%$ but when done they have enjoyed the challenge.They do enjoy the sets. Because they can tell where they are having problems. Espicially when doing 50s. Set TT at 1/2 50 pace, so it becomes a 2 beep 50. They can make it to the 25, but falter on the back 1/2. So now they know that they really have to focus on the back 1/2 in order to make it.
We have even done it by dividing the 50 into 1/4s, then they really know OK it’s my last 12.5 that is my problem.We also do it with 75s stroke and they really become engaged.
For 50m pool and doing 25s we would do 25 on pace and then they get 2 beeps for rest. Which gives them just enough time to easy swim to the end and get ready to go again.
You can really get creative with TT and they can tell you alot if you pay attention.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
forgot something “btb” is what we call “beat the beep”. We use a tempo trainer for these sets. They will set it for their time e.g. 12.35, they will then leave on the first beep and have to be at the other end either just before or as they touch on the second beep. This becomes a pure 1:1 w:r ratio.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
