oldschoolc
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Evohunter7, I apologize for the VERY late reply. No. I keep all speadsheets to season. So I have one for SCY & LCM. they do get long but you just hide columns. I think it’s better that way as I can go back and see how we are either progressing or regressing and can make adjustments to the numbers.
I have hpoefully attached our 25s of free and stroke. I also have them for 50s, 100s free and 75 stroke.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Doc, you might want to reread your first and last sentences. Looks like one meet and change? I did miss the 6 weeks and I apologize. The biological maturity issue was not meant to insult your intelligence. It’s there and it’s uncontrolable. We just need to focus on the things we have some control over.
“I’m just wanting to ensure that I’m on the right track & as far as how much we’re doing, etc” What are you doing?
Using your data 6 weeks at 4 days and 3-4 sets. If I just say 3 sets per day as an example then that’s 72 sets of the 72 sets say you do 25s, 50s, and 75s that would be 24 sets of each distance.I just divided them equally.Using 25s, you offer 20 x 25 each time, so at this point that would be in the neighborhood of 480 x 25s offered. what percent have they made? there is a number. With the 50s, say you offer 16 x 50 each time, that’s going to be roughly 384 x 50, again what percent have they made?
The numbers made is about “accumulating potential” low %s not much “in the old bank account” hard to spend “utilization of that potential” if you don’t have it. Without numbers I don’t know many guys that can help you. There are guys, albeit not many, that have quite a bit of data on this and are willing to help but coaches are going to have to provide more information than they are probably use to.
If a patient came into your office and all they said was “it hurts” and you spend the next twenty minutes playing 20 questions to final figure out what might be the problem and then set a course of action. Or you have the patient that comes in and says ” Doc, I have pain above and below my right eye, my ears are plugged off and on and when I go underwater hurts like !@#$” The course of action gets done alot quicker I’d suspect.
The more information/data you and other coaches can provide the better chance we have of helping each other.
Apologize for the long post.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Really. One meet and you’re ready to change?
As a club coach the biological maturity issue is always going to be a factor. Get over it! The research says 1-3% improvement can be attributed to biological maturity until they reach peak height. So if they are improving at a greater rate than that (per year) at least you know you didn’t screw them up and that’s about it. Truthfully
This is not an easy system “plug and play”. You have to be on top of recording. Numbers offered, numbers made, looking at race splits/tempos/cycles and correlating them to practice performances/sets and vice versa.
We are now the researchers and we have to record the data and I really don’t think that after a couple of weeks of training and one meet you can make “heads or tails” of what to expect.
This is going to take work and probably more observation on the part of the coach than most are use to or willing to do for extended periods.
Do the work and stay the course! If you do the “numbers will start to speak to you”
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Sure. We even do it without a warm-up “cold swim”. In the 90s Gennadi Touretski did them with Popov and Klim.
We usually do two a week when we don’t have a meet to go to. Best data is from 100 and 200 TTs. They can tell you a lot about were they are in training."Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
You were expecting what? Are they faster now than the first LC meet last season? What is the age range of the kids? I guess I could flip that and say the TT method didn’t work either being it’s 50/50.
You say “seemed out of shape” What are their split differences i.e 1st 50 to 2nd 50 in the 100s? In the 200s what was the drop off from 1st to 2nd,then 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th? Compared to last season. How do they compare to what you are having them hold in practice (converted)?
You can write sets of 30 x 100 or 10 x 200 the just need to be specific to some race. Can they hold back 1/2 200 pace on 100s and how many can they make or 500 pace on the 200s, or do they hold 1000/1500 pace and how many can they make? We use 75s and 150s, they carry better speed. Just a thought
You state that you “implemented this training a month ago” that’s 12 days of race pace work. If you figure 3 free and 3 stroke that’s 6 of each and you are doing 3 sets per workout. If you have been recording the numbers of repeats made at RP for each workout. My guess is the numbers done aren’t very high “Accumulation of Potential” like a savings account it’s just that it hasn’t earned much interest yet, “Utilization”.
You need data to truly evaluate and without it becomes very difficult for anyone to help. Sure you can get “Well I think” and “this is what…” but without data their idea may be not be any better than yours.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
On average there are 14 to 6 per event, does vary by year (right now I’m loaded with girl 100/200 Breaststrokers and boys 100/200 Freestylers, just the cycle?) and that they have to swim that event at least 4-6 times in a season. Minimum number of swimmers in an event is 4, have to have at least that to be included in the data. I don’t included events that have an “N” of only one or two as it’s not really valid like 400IM or mile. My kids just aren’t that keen on swimming those events or at least not very often. It would make the stats look better with improvement rate of 15% or better with a “N” of one. But again, would not be very truthful. That’s why I posted no data on 400IMs/miles.
I’ve been researching data on biological maturity and most of what I can find (limited at best) is 1.2% up to 3% per year (that might be a stretch). So I may just figure the average an add that into the data and see what it looks like. Thinking there is to try and remove or at least account for things like growth (PHV) and increases in strength. The organism we deal with is so unstable most of the time and a teenager’s body doesn’t know whether it’s “on foot or horseback” Do I grow? grow really fast for a while then slow? then fast again. Gain strength, then gain weight. Now the “boat” changes shape? Now what do you do?
Guess I think too much.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Here is some data from 1990 to 2000, when we used a very traditional approach. The % improvements are for SCY seasons only. I have LCM data for the same time frames.
50fr 1.671
100fr 2.520
200fr 2.802
500fr 3.456
100ba 3.802
200ba 2.841
100br 2.959
200br 4.648
100fl 4.604
200fl 2.237
200IM 2.3582000-2010, we switched over too a much more directed, race pace and higher volumes of RP training.
50fr 2.901
100fr 3.800
200fr 4.032
500fr 4.686
100ba 5.023
200ba 4.071
100br 4.189
200br 5.834
100fl 5.834
200fl 3.467
200IM 3.5882010-2014 data is even a little better that 2000-2010
Wish the site handled attachements better. It’s a lot easiler to read in EXCEL format."Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
This site needs a pay-pal account for parents asking for advice and workouts. Really! First we need to help each other.
I’m sorry. But from what I can gather the majority of coaches on this site have very litle expierence with USPRT or Parametic Training Methodology (less than a year) either with older swimmers 14+ and especially younger swimmers. It’s like me telling a neurosurgeon how to perform brain surgery. Might get lucky, I wouldn’t bet my life on it.
We have used the Parametric System for over 18 years with older and younger swimmers and have data covering that time frame. What it has shown is that age group swimmers have no clue, whether they are on “foot or horseback” so it becomes about teaching the system so they have a stronger understanding of the fundamental/skills needed to become a senior swimmer.(period) that they swim fast is nice, but not the sole determining factor.
The younger and even older swimmers are in cacaos biologically speaking it’s trying to grow, not growing, stops for awhile then starts again. How many of you measure your swimmers 2 times per year to know Peak Height Velocity? Developed an IM protocol within the system for age groupers? What about development of the myelin sheath (nervous system), starts then stops, then starts again and we’re going to try and we’re going to try and prove a system off of 12 & unders. The majority play harder with their friends then swim at practice.
I get wanting to be helpful. but stop and think or we turn into swimswam 🙂
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Might want to read this on kickboards. Ok I give up on attachments on this website.
A Kiwi coach had some observations regarding kickboard usage.
Try Ally Todd, National Education Manger, New Zealand Swimming.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Billratio,
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve sat thru a clinic at Senior Nationals or ASCA Coaches Clinic and heard the stories of “Well Alex Popov, swam the 1500 in under 16 minutes and that he goes 15k a day and he’s a sprinter” They didn’t mention that he trained 3 x a day for max. 1.5hr (not hard to go 5k per workout), they didn’t mention that on days he had great results in practice they went and watched WC soccer on TV and they didn’t do the 2nd or 3rd workout and they never mentioned that about every third day he took off and went to go get a massage. Never mentioned that Touretsky had him do over 100 starts(races) per year each in the 50 and 100 either under competition or practice situations had to be within 3% of LTB to count as good result. Nope just that he did 15k a day and under 16 mimutes in the 1500.Got me all fired up! and I have to give a clinic on USRPT this weekend in Fargo, ND.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Interesting use of words “concern” and “experimenting on these 8-12 year olds”. We had no problem back in the 70s and 80s having 8-12 year olds kids going doubles 4-5 times a week, some went 11 workouts a week for weeks on end, espicially 11-12 girls with the big drive for Juniors and no one voiced concern and at that time we had very little science to back up anything we were doing. You just did what everyone else was doing or kinda experimenting.
I think if you read or reread Dr. Rushall’s you find that he actually was a pretty good plan for the younger swimmers and a MUCH better progression for development and it’s pretty simple: focus on technique, swim fast, refocus on technique, swim fast again and refocus on technique.
“and obviously Michael Phelps has had lots of success with what he has been doing.” I guess it depends on how you define “success” winning medals then yes. Going faster? The last time he had a best time in the 100 and 200 fly was 09 at WC the 200IM was 2011, again all those hours of training year after year and no improvement?
“It’s hard to do this with a large workout group. Just my observation.” We currently have 35 age groupers in 6 lanes that are using USRPT protocol and have been able to manage it (didn’t say it was easy). For them it’s really about teaching them the process i.e. focus on technical skill, being accountable for time/numbers and going fast in practice, so when they move up to the senior group that have a pretty solid understanding of what and how things are done.
Sorry for the long post.
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
I don’t get it! This obession with volume or holstic approach or whatever you want to call it. If you go on USA Swimming SWIMS data base and plug in a name of the top swimmers and look at their performance progressions over the last 4 years you will see a very different story. Rates of improvement over 4 years that are a negative and that would get the majority of club coaches fired! and yet we hang on to this myth of volume is the answer for now and the future.
A kid spends 100s of hours of training each year and makes no improvement? Really?
Look at race splits of kids that you know their programs go large volumes, dryland and lift. Where is the advantage? There has to be one or why would you do it.
During the Civil War they filled soldiers with whiskey, a stick to bite on and cut their leg off. If your Dr tried that you would hopefully ask about some type of anesthetic and if his reply was “hell this worked during the Civil War” you would crawl out of the office.
This “they need an aerobic base” when young as if this will last a life time. Really, you need to spend sometime reading about adapations in human performance and how long that lasts. Do you think the first time coaches saw U. Bolt, they said this kid needs to train for the 10k, so he will have the base to go faster when he’s older? I think hell no, they looked at him and said “shit this kid is fast” or at least I would have. Why would you turn a thoroughbred into a donkey or plow horse, with the hope that you can reconvert them back into a thoroughbred. Really!
Venting!
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Here is a workout we did last night. Times and GOs are for SCM pool
Looks a lot better in WORD.04.25.14
Friday
NTG/SRII10 minutes get ready!
Push-off to streamline with great balance up at breakout
*Push-off to streamline with great balance up to breakout and 3 HH
*Repeat above with eyes closed 🙂 Can you do it by feel?4 x 10 second imaginary jump rope with 30 rest
Focus core tension (maybe done in water)10 x 75 stk on 1:30
Stk 75 pace 75 pace
Roni H br 1:08.05 1:09.85
Trevor M ba 0:49.91 0:51.71
Emileigh br 1:02.68 1:04.48
Troy B ba 0:58.06 0:59.86
Jake V ba 0:59.04 1:00.84
Matt F br 1:02.45 1:04.25
Atanas I ba 1:02.13 1:03.93
Stephen D br 1:13.16 1:14.96
Owen C fr 0:49.14 0:50.94
Mary K br 1:02.16 1:03.96
Jack T fr 0:51.01 0:52.81
Holly K br 1:05.36 1:07.16
Matt K br 1:01.55 1:03.35
Victoria ba 1:04.63 1:06.43
Paige W ba 1:01.58 1:03.38
Amy H br 1:06.29 1:08.09
Zabric K fl 0:50.09 0:51.89
Gabby B br 1:16.73 1:18.53
Jordyn C fr 0:57.19 0:58.99
Quinn M br 1:12.00 1:13.80
Gwen S fr 0:53.55 0:55.35
Amanda F fr 0:55.08 0:56.88
Patricia ba 1:03.94 1:05.74200 easy swim
2 x 2 x 25 front loops with focus on “athletic move”
2 x 25 on :40 cycle by 25
4 x push-offs to great 3HH breakout
1:00 rest12 x 50 stk on 1:00
n x 50 Stk LCM
Roni H br 45.37 46.07
Trevor M ba 33.27 33.83
Emileigh br 41.79 42.13
Troy B ba 38.71 38.99
Jake V ba 39.36 39.94
Matt F br 41.64 41.98
Atanas I ba 41.42 42.15
Stephen D br 48.78 49.68
Owen C fr 32.76 33.53
Mary K br 41.44 41.78
Jack T fr 34.01 34.57
Holly K br 43.57 44.91
Matt K br 41.03 41.51
Victoria ba 43.08 43.64
Paige W ba 41.06 41.53
Amy H br 44.20 45.06
Zabric K fl 33.39 33.84
Gabby B br 51.15 51.47
Jordyn C fr 38.13 39.02
Quinn M br 48.00 48.34
Gwen S fr 35.70 35.97
Amanda F fr 36.72 37.18
Patricia ba 42.63 43.10200 easy swim
2 x 25 front loops with focus on “athletic move”
2 x 25 on :40 cycle by 25
4 x push-offs to great 3HH breakout
1:00 restUse tempo trainer on below
30 x 25 at ½ “50s on 1:00” pace
Swim easy
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
"Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
Ok. I give up.
You guys may want to move to the orginal USRPT website.
http://www.ucoz.com
This is BS unable to post file to site."Only in America. Dream in red, white and blue"
