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Kevin and all,
The speed is the most important thing to hold. Adjust rest intervals to the shortest possible. But just hold the speed. So it may mean that you have to do 50s on 2 or 1:30 to be able to hold back 1/2 100 pace. Just hold speed and let them stop when they can’t.We do 5-6 “n x 50 on 2:00” per week 3 x stroke and 3 x free per week along with all the other protocol sets we do. It is a lot of very fast swimming ever day. We have great weeks and some weeks not so great. But over all they hold up very well and are able to swim very fast. We just had a dual meet this past weekend, had over 80% season best and that’s from college swimmers at all distances, not an easy thing to do.
The question of “dealing with it” is really addressed in you have to let them stop when they can no longer hold pace/speed. Yes, it can be very frustrating when they only make 2 of the 10 you offered. But that’s what they could do that day. You have to trust them that they are giving you the best they have for that day.
Your observation on “high lactate” is correct in the early stages/season. In the 4 to 6 range La will be in the 8-10 mmol/l. But as the numbers progress we saw in the 12-16 x 50 range 4-6 mmol/l. I tested this over 3 seasons and held true each season. This is the “shift” I’ve discussed in other parts of the forum. It’s how the body handles work. It changes the energy demands and I don’t care what Dr. Rushall says in the “Bulletins” something changes.
Food for thought,
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Coachc,
You and me both! 1. not many or any do USRPT, in it’s true Dr. Rushall’s template that I am aware of. 2. I hate to be a jerk about this but getting coaches to record anything for longer than a year, is just about damn near impossible.What just grinds my teeth together is an athlete trains on average 3hrs per day, 2 hrs of pool time and an hour of dryland/wts. and has those rates of improvement. What is rather interesting is over 15 years ago myself and a USA Swimming Staff person did a project of one of the top college programs at that time and found a rate of improvement of .16 per year (nice to know not much has changed). As a club coach, if my kids only improved at .16/yr, I’d have been fired. I get all the difference that occur from club swimmer and college swimmer. We’re talking about human performance.
The flip side, with kids (parents) the goal is get the scholarship and not so much to swim fast in college. As a college coach you are not allowed to reduce or pull the scholarship due to lack of improvement. So they just put it on cruise control and I see it in practice everyday with some swimmers. How you determine who will swim fast after they sign and who won’t. Man, if you know that clue me in.
Enough rambling
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Not very.
Turn speeds for fly and breast should be in the .77 to .88 range (Sweetenham, we see .88 from top end kids)going from hand touch to foot touch. Probably needs to get his heels to his rear end and rotate faster.what are his splits? first 50, second 50.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Kevin,
If you look at the data the top 8 have an average of 3.39 deviation from first 50 fly to last 50 free. MA’s was 6.59? They have a very legitimate question about USRPT training.If he is sticking strictly to USRPT training principles with (regards to distance of repeats) then he is going to run into trouble.
I have found that if you take the 50 split time of free and double it that should be the “no slower than” speed for n x 100s on 2:00/1:30 for IMers. So he should be 31.08 x 2 = 1:02.16 or 55.95 (converted from scm to scy) on that type set.
Just thinking out loud,
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.gearing4speed,
I have done it in the past with coaches either by Skype or phone. I also have done a webinar and Coaches Corner on Ritter Sports Performance.If you send me an email to oldrecondoc@gmail.com with your phone number and best time to call. I will try and call you. The best times for me is on a weekend as I’m pretty busy with the college team during the week.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Marlin,
First, nice job on your performances and the kind words.Now the issue of speed development and The Holy Grail of swimming. We’re going to think outside the traditional box here and you are going to have to play with this to find the distance/time.
We’ll say you want to be able to swim the 50 breast in 30.41 (rough 2% improvement). Which is 1.644 meters or yards per second (D/t). So you are just starting out and you pick 12.5s, which would be 7.60 seconds. Get a tempo trainer and set it at 7.60 seconds and swim 12.5s. You make between 8 and 12. Try pushing it to 15s, which would be 9.12 and you make between 4 and 6, then you probably would stay there until you can do in the 8-12 range. You just keep pushing the distance out at the speed you want. As you can see this can and is a very tedious process. It does work, I’ve used this with some very fast swimmers i.e WC and Olympic medal winners. But again, it takes a lot of time.
I’d be interested in your results/feedback.
Food for thought.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Kevin,
I’m currently using 75’s, 100’s and 150’s. The 75s for 400/500 and set pace using the average of the last two 100s. Then break it down to m/s, then into 75 time at 3% to 5% over race speed. In fact we just did 14 x 75 on 1:10 tonight @ 500 pace, that’s 1050 yds at 500 pace and of the 5 kids that did that set 4 made all 14, 5th made 11. 100s I’ll use them “universally” sometime I’ll use them for the 500, 1000 and occasionally the 1650. 150s, I’ll use for the true 1650 kid. I think they hold better speed and technical skill. There’s just something about repeat 200s that just buggers them. Not sure why.The cycling of these gets tricky. Just because they also swim 100/200s of stroke and 4IM and you have to make sure they get enough stimulus each week. Right now we do 2 mornings (LCM) and that is strictly dedicated to 400/800/1500. During the week I’ll try and get in one more set in the afternoon. So 3 x per week of pure distance free work. It’s a real pain because they still have 25s fr & stk, 50s 2′ fr & stk, 50s 1′ fr & stk. They are holding up really well.
Sample set: THEY STOP AND REST IF THEY MISS PACE. RULES APPLY! I think this is where A LOT of coaches make the mistake and really wear down swimmers and then wonder why the kids get slower. Volume will not make them faster.
8 x 100 on 1:20/1:30 @ 800 pace
12 x 50 on :50/1:00 @ 400 pace with tempo trainer set at 400 tempo.
They will do 2 rounds. Thought process was to get them to be able to “shift” gears at the end of a race. It’s not a lot of fun. But they do a real good job on that set.Your sets are viable. IF YOU LET THEM STOP WHEN THEY CAN’T HOLD PACE. You have 3 workouts already done. Just some thoughts here.
workout
150s/200s at 1650 pace
Technical skill/recovery
50s at 500 pace
Technical skill/recovery
25s on 1′ stkworkout
50s/75s at 500 pace
Technical skill/recovery
100s at 1000 pace
Technical skill/recovery
50s on 1′ strokeI always try and rotate the first set so that they have a chance to improve on the numbers done.
Remember they are distance swimmers. They are use to “boredom” and don’t have to be “entertained” like sprinters 🙂An interesting article I’ve been rereading is ” Interval Training for Performance: A Scientific and Empirical Practice. It’s by Dr. Billat, about training middle distance runners. (Use Google Scholar) But if you understand physiology you can get some insight and makes you think.
Hope this helps,
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.AlanP,
Interesting question. Years and I mean years ago. I had my distance kids swim with HR monitors on and they would do 30 x 100 on 1:10, noticed the same thing. HR would be high and struggle a bit through the first 5 to 7 minutes, then HRs would become steady along with pace in just about the same time frame you explain and then after 20 minutes or so we would actually see a drop in HR and lower number of cycles used to cover then same time. They would say “if I can get through the first 6-7, I’ll make everyone.One thought I had was at about 20 minutes of activity the body shifts to using fat as an energy source. Its more efficient, therefore the reduction/efficiency in energy output. So the cycles and HR drops.
This was one explanation by exercise physiologist of the “2nd Wind” in running which occurred usually in that 20+ minute range. Not really sure if that’s it. But did sound reasonable based on an understand of physiology.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.lipearase,
The “training system” is really any program that follows the principles of progressive overload, specificity and technical training. There are a couple of varieties out there. Dr. Rushall did not invent nor discover the principles of training or interval training. They have been around for a very long time. He did put them into easier and more understandable form for coaches. Interesting side note is track. I speak with the track coaches all the time here and they say they shut things down when runners lose form. No form, no speed. The technical issue is always the number 1 priority.Here we adhere to once technical skills breakdown the set is over (failure of two in a row and they stop). Not sure why three in a set is relevant. You have any clue how hard that is for swimmers that have been pounded with “volume is what makes you fast” They are under the impression that 9k per workout at 80%, of race pace is somehow the reason they swim fast. I spent the better part of last season trying to convince these swimmers that that’s not the reason and they need to swim at race pace and I’m at a DI college program. Can you imagine a club coach trying to introduce this with the “all or nothing” attitude. I hope they have a second job. It’s obvious from your posts you don’t coach a club of any size. Otherwise you would understand that introducing any thing new, especially USRPT is better done in segments.Really who cares whether it’s partial or whole? Who are these “stakeholders” you talk about? Have they invested money in this system? So much for non-profit. I’m just thankful that the coaches on this site are trying to get better and I’ll take that any day. Slowly, but surely we will move forward and I’ll help them any way I can.
The blind adherence to rest intervals is mind numbing. If your race splits don’t line up with what you are doing in practice then what are you going to do? There are correlations from practice sets to race speed. You may want to take the time and search “doc or oldschool” and see what has been posted. It’s actually rather spooky, if you are paying attention.
Technique in freestyle.
We tell the swimmers to keep one eyeball or goggle in the water when they breathe. All this shoulder rotation of 45, 33 or whatever is nonsense. Swim in a straight line and use the tension that you would use in jump rope. It’s not a crunch, it’s a firmness and it doesn’t require 45 minutes to an hour of dryland to accomplish. How strong do your abs have to be? If you just spent an hour and a half thinking about core tension, staying connected and focused on technical skill.We have over thought this. But it makes for some great opportunities for people to make money.
Again, just thinking out loud.
? All that is not shared... is lost.Iipearse,
“In his book, Approaching Perfect Freestyle, Dr. Havriluk recommends that for an optimal non-breathing head position in freestyle, swimmers should look forward (at a 45 degree angle) so that both the wall at the end of the pool and the bottom of the pool are within view, and to feel the water level at the hairline. Conversely, Rushall suggests that the head should be down with the eyes looking directly at the bottom of the pool, and head depth should such that some water travels over the swimmer’s cap, in correctly-postured crawl-stroke. What do other coaches believe is most optimal for fastest/efficient freestyle swimming technique? What evidence do you have to support your position?”
Look at the bottom of the pool, takes tension out of the neck and allows the shoulders to stay in the scapular plane and lets the joint work as designed. “Posture-Line-Balance” actual came from synchronized swimming back in the late 60s and I’ll say adopted/introduced by Bill Boomer and Milt Nelms to the swimming community in the late 80s. Create your shape before movement. We try and bring land based posture to the aquatic environment and it doesn’t work/play with the water well.
I think swimming is as bad as golf with the over analyzing of every little detail. Think of it as walking. Your hand is your foot and your shoulders are your hips. Did some one “teach” you to walk?
Didn’t want you to feel like I ignored your buried post.
Just thoughts,
? All that is not shared... is lost.One, I don’t need to “acknowledge” anything. Coaches/Parents and even Master swimmers ask questions about the training system which on this site seems to be a bigger issue than technique. Those of us that have some experience/insight with a similar approach have offered some ideas, guidance, and even actual data. It may not be “conditioning” that is primary, but sure helps if you understand that part. It’s also very objective and coaches can “see and feel it”, with technique it can be very subjective more “touchy feely” not right or wrong, just is.
I did a search on this site of your user name and found the number of topics started 0, number of replies 9. If you are so dismayed then why didn’t you start the conversation about technique long before now? Get in the fight or stay on the sidelines and just read. It is safer that way.
You are entitled to your belief. But the reality is in order for USRPT to be recognized it eventually needs accreditation. Otherwise it’s just that, another organization.
What is the big deal about “USRPT pretenders” who cares? “It is apparent that a lot of coaches are claiming to be practicing USRPT”. Who is it “apparent” too? Who are the “prominent figures within the USRPT community have identified to insure coaches can competently practice USRPT and advertise their program as being USRPT without misleading the public”. Makes a huge assumption that the public cares.
“Beware of sites and programs that claim to be USRPT but fail to include one or more basic elements of the USRPT protocol in practice sessions. Recognizing USRPT program element omissions could indicate “pretenders” of USRPT coaching” So if a coach uses one or more of the basic elements (bits & pieces) he is USRPT? So then it’s not all or nothing? Can the coach make modifications to fit his or her situation? “Most of it surrounds conditioning (a lot of which is not USRPT conditioning)” or is it? But if you are following one or more of the basic elements then it is USRPT?
I ran a “not for profit” for 35 years and I will tell you if you don’t make a profit you won’t be in business long. We had the same verbiage in our by-laws. it makes donors feel good.
Doc/oldschool 73 topics started and 151 replies. At least I have skin in the game.
? All that is not shared... is lost.Marlin,
It’s called “speed reserve” the difference between top end speed and shall we say “going out” speed. I believe its one of the most over looked or even more, a complete lack of knowledge that it even exists for most coaches and especially in the training of “distance swimmers” Along with the lack of knowledge and understanding of PHV (Peak Height Velocity) has been the demise of many a young distance swimmer.In cyclic sports you can use the following and this will vary depending on the distance used. Its probably the easiest way.
SR=(Td / n) -Ts
SR = Speed Reserve
Td = time on controlled distance
Ts = best time on a standard distance
n = number indicating by what factor the control distance is longer than the standard.
Hint: higher the number the better 🙂You get to work on it and we’ll see what you come up with 🙂
Resources used are:
Theory & Methodology by Dr. Tudor Bompa, Should be in the third edition?
Science of Sport by Thomas Kurz, should still be available
Sports Training Principles by Dr. Frank Dick, should still be available
Dr. Dietrich Hare (Former East German researcher), If you can find his book BUY IT!While I do admire Dr. Rushall for all the work he has put forward to help coaches there is a bit more that coaches need to have and that’s at least a basic knowledge of human physiology, so when they run into issues they have a fundamental base in which to work off. What do you do when the wheels start to come off the wagon?
Just playing around,
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Lefthanded,
Just not sure what coaches will get out of it. Not sure many clubs needing a coach are going to require them to be USRPT certified. It’s much like ASCA’s coach certification of I thru V. OK, but not really required to get a coaching job. I hate saying this but will having that certification make the coach any more money?Interesting on the nutrition. I did something similar, after watching a YouTube video from Dr. Tim Noakes. I reduced eating carbs to under 90 grams a day (he wants it in the 20-30g/d, but I like ice cream) and lost 34 lbs. Now granted I’m 62 and 6’3″ was 265. But feel a lot better.
The genetic information could be really interesting. If you know how to use it.
I’ve attached a couple of files on PHV that might help understand what is going on with the athlete’s development. They can explain a lot of the ups and downs with athlete performances.
1. is the shortened version 2. Is much more in-depth with research out of Canada and their LTAD program.
? All that is not shared... is lost.Lefthanded swimmer and a “universal” you.
What data/research are you looking for? Why don’t you post what you have? Season end results with correlations between race and training, total number made for the season i.e. 25s, 50s, and etc. Whatever you have done? Why is someone else supposed to provide this? I’d figure after a year worth of data gathering coaches would have plenty to post. Right or wrong just putting it out there and see if anyone else is seeing the same thing.Maybe you might try the search function on this site and see some of what has been posted by very very few coaches. Try searching Billratio, KngLenny, oldschool, doc, Kevin or Marlin and see what they have posted. They actually have tried to post at least what they have or are seeing.
I spoke with MA’s dad at the US Open and was not impressed with the information. No correlations from training to race, nothing. You would figure with just one swimmer you would have a boat load of information to share. Nope and most was anecdotal at best. Really! You’re trying to promote a system and you have nothing to share?
If you are looking for the Holy Grail, it ain’t happening. If you are looking for the good Dr. to post data. It ain’t happening. Not now or in the future. It just isn’t. Because he doesn’t have any! Lots of anecdotes and 50+ bulletins, but that ain’t data.
I’ve seen this happen before everyone gets all worked up about some new “system”, everything goes sideways, everyone gets all excited and then finds out you actually have to do some work and think and it falls by the way side.
Just a general observation
? All that is not shared... is lost.
