doc
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Marlin,
They still do the failure method. We have moved away from three in the set to they have to miss two in a row. Didn’t phase the kids one bit, and it took them about 2 days to adjust and 2 in a row became the norm.The challenge is there has to be an objective pace time and not the usual “I want these at back 1/2 200 pace”, most swimmers left to determine this will be anywhere from .8 to 1.5, off what they should probably be holding. If they have a time that was generate by THEIR best time posted in front of them, then efforts take on a whole new meaning.
I wish the good Dr. had never posted numbers. I know why it’s done. But it defeats the whole purpose.
Just a side note. We’re starting to get the kids back from summer and I’ve met with about 1/2 as of now and almost to a swimmer they are glad to be back. The most common comment was been ” I really missed the pace times. It gave me a focus and I knew I had to hold that pace in order to improve”. They commented ” I was lost not knowing and just swimming back and forth didn’t really do anything for me”. Yes, they did a lot of WORK, won’t argue that. The problem is it’s not specific enough. Yes, it’s a royal pain in the !@# that you have to treat them differently than the 13 year old’s in the group. But if someone told you coaching was easy. They lied 🙂
P.S. We had 82.72% LTB this summer from the kids that stayed and trained with us (no brag, just fact). One was an Olympian that swam a best time in her event at RIO after swimming a BT, just 2 weeks before.
Just some thoughts,
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Some thoughts not really directed at anyone, just thoughts.
Why even set a number? Why not just have their “training pace”, an example might be 2nd 50 of 100 for “50s on 2:00”, see how many they can do at that pace. Track the number done and after a couple of times through the set they will develop an average number made for the set. (Hint: Excel) Then use the average number as a guide for increases and say “try for two above average” for some with an average of 4, they go for 6 and others may be going for 8, just depends on their average. I think that more closely follows the Principles of Progressive Overload and Specificity and would also allow for better individualization. Whether we like it or not, if you have 20+ kids in a group you have 20+ individualized adaptation rates.
I’ve actually being doing this with the kids this summer and at first it was sheer mental anguish on their part! They were so locked in on having a number 16 x 50 on 1:00, and when it was just 50s on 1:00, lord you would have thought the world was coming to an end. The number of times I had the question “How many do we have to do?” was mind numbing. I just kept repeating “as many as you can at that pace” Guess what they actually got the hang of it. Now they just come in look at workout, see how many they made last time and get in and try to improve on that number. They have really taken ownership of their work.
just thinking
? All that is not shared... is lost.That’s good! Love the “one more ring than the vikings”
Best
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Billratio,
You do know that they know what causes that?I child proof my house and they still kept getting in 🙂
Best to you and your family!
Oh and GO PACKERS!
? All that is not shared... is lost.Marlin,
You have followed the forum for awhile and know I will go on a rant every once in a while.I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone. It’s just that there are so many questions to ask and we have to keep pushing the enevlope.
? All that is not shared... is lost.KngLenny,
Welcome to the world of human performance! You are not the sprint coach based on your post. You are more mid-dist. I write workouts for our sprinters and not one of them swims the 500 and on very few occasions the 200s of stroke or IM. You are mid-dist.You have to find a way to “hide” be it technical work for the last 15-20 minutes of practice or space it out in 10-12 minute blocks i.e. push-offs to breakouts, turns, starts or underwater work anything that occupies time and doesn’t draw attention to the group and are skills they will need for their events. Hard to argue with!
You have to adjust/be creative in your thinking.
? All that is not shared... is lost.Andy1,
I’m the Director of Performance for a DI program in the US. I write all workouts for Spr/MD/Dist. We have swimmers that have been 3rd at World Juniors, are their countries national record holders from the 50 to 200, conference record holders, World Champion qualifiers and Olympians. Just so you have an idea of the level of athlete I deal with.If you follow the “once they can no longer hold pace they can stop”. I’ve seen no diference between male and female. If you don’t then you will see differences as the males will struggle espicially the heavily muscle massed. You would need to adjust rest accordingly.
Just a note. I read where you at least to me had an extensive dryland program. We did something last semester using an app called the “tap test”, it test CNS activation. The thought process was “if they test low, then why do heavy lifting or exhaustive type work?” If they tested low they would do a recovery type workout for wts. If they tested high then go for it. The feedback we got from the kids was that they really enjoyed being able to adjust. I will tell you this that the majority tested low because they were exhausted!
Hope this helps
? All that is not shared... is lost.They really have to focus. It’s against all instinct to exhale before dropping underwater and will take them a few attempts to figure it out.
Somethings we’ve done in the past is:
1. Large LEGO blocks and sink to the bottom and see how many you can put together on one exhale. After a couple attempts they get pretty good at it. Had some guys that go get all 28 stacked.
2. No LEGO blocks. Go to the hardware store and buy some 4″-5″, 1/2 or greater bolts with about 3 washers each and nuts. Scatter them over the bottom of the pool and tell them “you get one breath and put them together” The kicker is you have to “exhale” first 🙂
What you see is we’re real comfortable in the first 18 inches of water. But after that not so comfortable. I did this at a clinic and had some pretty good swimmers not even come close to putting the bolts, washer and nuts together.
I have them exhale and get to the 25m mark as fast as they can. Which is very close to “n x 25 on 2:00” and they are 25s on 1:00. We try not to “clutter” things. Just swim fast. I think that as coaches we think we have to give them ALL the information or we’re not coaching. Just let them “rip” and see happens.
Did it again with a breaststroker this am and the kid went crazy! Had to hold 15.00, on 25s on 1:00 and was holding 14.66 avg with stdev .13.
I really think it distracts/feels different enough that they “just swim”
This is now the “ART” of coaching (based on some science :)).
Keep playing with it and let us know what you see.
? All that is not shared... is lost.Rick,
I apologize for the late reply. It might be interesting or it could be a dead end. You never know until you go down the path.I like the idea of once in the morning and then again before practice. Please let me know your results.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.The float idea is actually something I picked up from Bill Boomer in 1992 and is called the “Aquatic Signature”. It holds pretty true and is a simple test that at least gives you an idea of what you are dealing with and possibly the path to go (it’s not perfect. But what it takes 10 minutes of your time to maybe have a better idea?). For coaches that may read this maybe spend the last 10 minutes of practice in the deep end and see what happens. (Nothing ventured, nothing gained). Just make mental notes and then watch practice and see (kids with better float angles make higher number of of 50s on whatever interval ???). The 30 degree angle is about the high end range of 200 swimmers, including 2IM. Greater than 33ish, and things get a little rough. Not so much for you 🙂 But for the swimmer it hurts like !@##. Square peg, round hole or you may be trying to make a thoroughbred into a donkey.
The coaches/parents/master swimmers on this forum believe the research that the good Dr. was presented. Because it is based on sound research and how the body handles work. That’s not the issue. Coaches/parents/master swimmers from the questions I see and respond to is ” does it work?” or “what kind of numbers are you getting?” etc. That’s where I have the problem with no data from Dr. Rushall. He put this out there and leaves everybody hanging. Support your idea/theory/hypothesis, DO SOMETHING! and what you get is crickets. Sure you get some note at the bottom of a new bulletin about some club in Australia, BUT no data. So we’re just suppose to accept this on blind faith? Coaches jobs depend on this working and some have made a leap of faith and crossed their fingers and hope like !@## it works and need support that they have chosen the right path.
You guessed it! For the guys that have been on the forum from pretty much the beginning know, Good old Doc, he’s on his “soap box” again 🙂 But if I’m wrong tell me. I have no problem with it.
? All that is not shared... is lost.In some of your other posts you have mentioned paraphrase here that “he’s a late maturer and it’s going to be to late for college” and the above as I read it has a tone of urgency/panic. Right or wrong that’s how I read it. I’ll take the tongue lashing.
I know exactly what your son is like. I spent 35 years as a club coach with the last 23 as CEO/HC. So I’ve seen hundreds. Spent more than enough time with too short, late and early maturer, no real feel for the water, etc. and had to make something out of it. Correct the data you have seen is complied from college swimmers and I also have 20+ years of club swimmers.(if you search through some older post (1+yrs) you’ll see data on the club kids) I believed it would work anywhere with any level of athlete and the DATA supports that it can.
I’m not attacking tempo. It’s just one piece of the puzzle and can be easily address using a tempo trainer. The other part of the equation is cycles. Remember in it’s simplest form velocity is “tempo times cycles” or “SR X SL”.
Your question about 2 fly set. Quick little test. Have him prone float. Just lay face down on the water with legs on the surface and then just relax and let the water do whatever it wants. You just watch and see what happens. If he sinks to the bottom say within 5 seconds you might want to reconsider swimming the 2 fly. If his legs sink say in the 30 degree angle or greater and his upper body stays on the surface he might be OK for the 2 fly. But could be a bit of a struggle at times. Try and see. You maybe trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
Your 50s question. Yes, you are not going to get the same numbers. They always achieve higher numbers when doing 25s regardless of abilities. 50s hurt!
The bulletin was nothing new. If you have read the others like you say you have then you would agree. Who cares about the “pretenders” it’s about getting results. Do you know anything about the Carlisle Programs in Australia? It’s huge and one of the better programs “down under” Dr. references them all the time as an example of USRPT. Why no data? Let coaches see how it works with all ages and see how the numbers progress good or bad. Could possibly answer some questions and get more coaches at least THINKING.
You have no clue of how long it took on this forum just to get coaches to post actual splits.(Those that have been on the forum from the beginning know what I’m talking about)and then to start looking at them and “letting the numbers talk to them). But first you have to have the data. I believe now that coaches are posting more splits they look at what they are doing and what they had done, and can explain some things. Sure ask better questions. How do you avoid your failures and replicate successes if you don’t write stuff down?
? All that is not shared... is lost.Jesus! calm down! You are way to emotionally attached to this situation.
Bulletin 58, 18 pages of BS and produced nothing! Sure a lot of studies validating his thoughts (many I agree with). But where the hell is the data! It’s been two years of preaching about USRPT and nothing. Not one example of even one swimmer doing what he says. Where the hell is the data! He claims to be some evidence based researcher. Where is the evidence? He claims that some club in Australia is having great results. Then where is the data? Training pace to race, where is it?
His one swimmer: Michael Andrew at Mesa Arena Pro Meet splits.
100 breast: 28.98/32.49 = 1.01.47, his 25s with no more than 20 rest should be 15.38.
Just an FYI. I had the kid that WON that event. Using 25s on 1:00 and 50s on 2:00 and he was with in 03 of projected.100 fly: 25.42/30.30 = 55.71 for an average 25 pace of 13.92, I seriously doubt it.If he is, he is travelling to slow.
200 IM: 26.33/32.75/38.56/31.78 = 2:09.42. From these splits I can tell you what he needs to hold for 25’s on 1:00, 50’s on 2:00, 50s on 1:00 and 100’s. No BS. Fact! (over 2000 splits to prove it)
His splits DON’T line up with what is actually happening. But then again we don’t actually know because no data is produced.
If I was trying to convince coaches that my way was better. Why would you not post data? I’ll tell you why. He doesn’t have it! He was one swimmer and that’s it and they don’t share.
You can do this! Take his first 50 of the 200 fly and that’s “50s on 2” pace (hint it should also be the 2nd 50 of 100 fly) and for “50s on 1:10” use the average of 2, 3, & 4 figure standard deviation add that back to average and that’s pace. Simple.
Screw the damn numbers Rushall talks about! Just do more than the last time you offered the set. That’s all you can ask for.
God damn it! stroke/cycle is TEMPO or STROKE RATE!. If he is holding pace he will have to hold tempo and cycle. It will replicate the race! Let him swim the RACE!
Let’s admit. You have no clue what you are doing.
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.They are on 2:00. I’ve tried 1:30, but man the technical skills go right out the window FAST.
? All that is not shared... is lost.Marlin,
He swims a boat load of fly. He was n x 25 on 1:00 and n x 25 on 2:00 (pwr) and n x 100s at back 1/2 200 pace (that set hurts like !@#$ and not many enjoy it). Plus he is a 1:51.23 2 IMer and so we have those strokes we have to address. So every day he will have 3 protocol sets he has to work on and all at race specific paces with a focus on underwater work, turn speeds and surface swimming skills i.e tempo and cycles. Funny thing is he was a non-believer starting out and now really tough to argue it won’t work.After years now of recording data and trying to make a correlation from training to race. I’m starting to think “you really don’t have to do that much volume to create an adaption”. But it has to be as specific as you can get and you have to rehearse it damn near very day with some segment of the race and the big one “YOU HAVE TO LET THEM STOP WHEN THEY CAN’T HOLD PACE”.
The “drop dead guys” that need a lap counter to swim the 200. Yes, they will swim 50s on 1:00, they don’t really get to high numbers on them (controlled by me) as you have to be careful or you will swim the speed right out of them. I’ll do things like “swim 8 in a row at TP and you can stop” They like the challenge and they will even admit they like to feel the “sting”. Not a lot but a little 🙂 It also gives the Mid-Distance and Distance group something to give them !@#$ about:)
Hope this helps,
Doc
? All that is not shared... is lost.Gary,
I apologize for the very late reply. But thank you very much for the kind words.One I owe a couple of Russian coaches a great deal of gratitude for introducing me to the system and the real inter workings, with out their help and sharing of their knowledge of the system I would have floundered. I will always be gratefully to them. I will say the one thing they didn’t do was correlate the protocol sets to actual race pace. Whole another topic.
Funny thing is that most have abandoned the system. Some are here in US and I think they have fallen into “entertaining” swimmers and not truly training for human performance. I understand its grinding. You have to rehearse every day the race model. It’s like dancers they don’t rehearse the steps for 3 months and on the night of the recital change the steps.
Man I hope this makes sense.
? All that is not shared... is lost.
